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It's not my problem that "abstractions" (aka perfectly mainstream math) make you queasy. Other than that, there were two possibilities for your initial "misreading" of my post, which was that you either had a genuine misunderstanding or were disingenuously misrepresenting what I said. You were given the benefit of the doubt with my initial reply and have now shown clearly that the latter is the case, so I will happily leave you to go troll someone else.

'Perfectly mainstream math' isn't an appropriate method for understanding complex human activity, it's untethered to social reality, hence queasy making.

I didn't find your post clear because I found the argument leading up to it totally uninteresting, so your post perhaps lacked context, but I am aware of Khun, if not perfectly mainstream math. I wasn't being disingenuous in my representation of you, that's quite a paranoid take on things. That being said, I don't like how you relate to people here and maybe you should just fuck off.
 
Try reading my post in context of the claims by Pickman it was a response to. Pickman presented the claim by an individual scientist that the Martian meteorite constitutes solid evidence of extraterrestrial life. I presented that the scientific consensus on that question is that no evidence of extraterrestrial life has been found yet. Pickman retorted by bringing up Kuhn and Feyerabend claiming that science progresses by paradigm shifts. Specifically the argument goes basically "science progresses by paradigm shifts therefor the opinion of this one scientist should have as much weight as the scientific consensus" and that is the argument I responded to with my post. I'm arguing against the relativism which was being implied by Pickman's post about paradigm shifts. My point in that post is very simple: Just because science progresses through paradigm shifts doesn't mean that any random individual scientist's belief on a question holds as much weight as the scientific consensus on that question.

You seem to be ascribing to me the argument which I was arguing against and interpreting my two leading questions designed to point out the flaw with that argument with genuine questions which might be answered affirmatively. Although admittedly I could've written that post a bit clearer instead of just relying on two leading questions - that I decided later to change tack from bringing up Kolmogorov and Turing to just some quick direct reasoning probably didn't help the readability of my post either. Kolmogorov and Turing weren't just arbitrarily brought up either, if you combine Kolmogorov complexity theory and computability theory you can construct a precise formalism for scientific progress through paradigm shifts, and why and when one changes from ad-hoc modifications to current theory to shifting to an entirely new theory, see for example the Minimum Message Length formalism.
You mendacious shit. I did not present the views of one scientist as proof positive there's alien life. I said this scientist believes that it's been found on Mars. And I'd be grateful for an apology for your inventing quotes and attributing them to me, not to mention your misrepresenting what I've said
 
You mendacious shit. I did not present the views of one scientist as proof positive there's alien life. I said this scientist believes that it's been found on Mars. And I'd be grateful for an apology for your inventing quotes and attributing them to me, not to mention your misrepresenting what I've said

I'll apologize for misrepresenting what you've said after you've apologized for falsely claiming that I am "inventing quotes and attributing them to you" you mendacious shit.
 
I'll apologize for misrepresenting what you've said after you've apologized for falsely claiming that I am "inventing quotes and attributing them to you" you mendacious shit.
There you go again, inventing quotes, you can't stop yourself. First you say I specifically used an argument I didn't and now this. Doubling down on your inventions isn't a good look.
 
'Perfectly mainstream math' isn't an appropriate method for understanding complex human activity, it's untethered to social reality, hence queasy making.
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Well if math isn't an appropriate method for scientific model selection, then what would you have people use instead? Tarot cards? Are you seriously expecting your personal queasiness with math to be in any way, shape, or form a valid argument against its use?

I didn't find your post clear because I found the argument leading up to it totally uninteresting, so your post perhaps lacked context, but I am aware of Khun, if not perfectly mainstream math. I wasn't being disingenuous in my representation of you,
that's quite a paranoid take on things.

Well if it's not disingenuous then you sure have a knack for arguing against strawmen of your own creation. And it's hardly paranoia in an environment where disingenuous misrepresentations are endemic.

That being said, I don't like how you relate to people here and maybe you should just fuck off.

And I can only imagine how full of yourself you have to be to think that your personal queasiness with math somehow constitutes an argument against it. I suppose I could tell you to just fuck off because I don't like how you present nothing but your personal visceral reactions as if they somehow constituted arguments, but then I'm not so full of myself to expect others to fall all over themselves (either "fucking off" from a forum, or stop using math for scientific model selection) to abide by my personal wishes.
 
You are really fucking boring. You have been reported multiple times for being really fucking boring and also just turning up here to attack existing posters.

Can you not be less boring and also attack existing posters less?

Before you say "who are you to tell me what to do" without looking at the sidebar, I'm a moderator. I really don't like to intervene with this stuff. Can we not just find a way?
 
You are really fucking boring.

Well sounds like I fit in perfectly then.

You have been reported multiple times for being really fucking boring and also just turning up here to attack existing posters.

Can you not be less boring and also attack existing posters less?

Before you say "who are you to tell me what to do" without looking at the sidebar, I'm a moderator. I really don't like to intervene with this stuff. Can we not just find a way?

I will continue to engage existing posters in the way they engage with me.
 
Well sounds like I fit in perfectly then.



I will continue to engage existing posters in the way they engage with me.
ok but be warned that at the point where you are considered to be disrupting this randomly wandering pointless thread, you run the risk of being banned

I appreciate that that isn't exactly much of a threat but I'm not interested in threats anyway so it's cool
 
oh right you think you can change words and claim them as a direct quote. You're happy misrepresenting other posters, saying they're arguing things they're not. You're acting like a dick.

Yes Pickman, you can change a direct reference such as "me" to "you" to retain the meaning of the quote. Not only is that not misrepresenting a statement but it is the exact opposite, given that the particular transformation is required to retain the original meaning.
 
Yes Pickman, you can change a direct reference such as "me" to "you" to retain the meaning of the quote. Not only is that not misrepresenting a statement but it is the exact opposite, given that thej particular transformation is required to retain the original meaning.
no it isn't. You made a choice to lie above about what I was saying. And you're lying here that changing what I said is necessary to retain the original meaning.
 
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Well if math isn't an appropriate method for scientific model selection, then what would you have people use instead? Tarot cards? Are you seriously expecting your personal queasiness with math to be in any way, shape, or form a valid argument against its use?



Well if it's not disingenuous then you sure have a knack for arguing against strawmen of your own creation. And it's hardly paranoia in an environment where disingenuous misrepresentations are endemic.



And I can only imagine how full of yourself you have to be to think that your personal queasiness with math somehow constitutes an argument against it. I suppose I could tell you to just fuck off because I don't like how you present nothing but your personal visceral reactions as if they somehow constituted arguments, but then I'm not so full of myself to expect others to fall all over themselves (either "fucking off" from a forum, or stop using math for scientific model selection) to abide by my personal wishes.

You said there was a mathematical model that could show 'why and when one changes from ad-hoc modifications to current theory to shifting to an entirely new theory'. You didn't explain what that meant, and you knew it wouldn't be clear to non-mathematicians, which is why you said it. There are a couple of excellent mathematicians here, I'm not one of them. You hoped to intimidate me. I understood you as saying that you can explain the progress of science by applying a mathematical model, divorced from the activity that produces it, i.e no need for social science here. You then edited your post to explain what you meant, but again did it in such a highly arrogant way that was meant to let us all know how superior you are, and still didn't provide clarity.

Maths doesn't make me queasy, people applying inappropriately abstract concepts to the messy stuff of human society, that makes me feel queasy because it seems mad, divorced from life. If that's not what you were doing, then fair enough, but you write in such a way as to make it very difficult to understand what you mean, it's like you're arguing with a version of yourself.

I don't think my personal visceral reactions do constitute arguments, they're descriptions not explanations - sometimes that's all we have and its imperious to insist otherwise.
 
ok but be warned that at the point where you are considered to be disrupting this randomly wandering pointless thread, you run the risk of being banned

Fair enough.

I appreciate that that isn't exactly much of a threat but I'm not interested in threats anyway so it's cool

What kind of anarchist would respond to such threat anyway? Either you take a position on principle and see it through or you don't, and any anarchist who would be scared out of the former by the threat of being banned from an internet forum should wait to see what kind of threats the state has in store for them.
 
no it isn't. You made a choice to lie above about what I was saying. And you're lying here that changing what I said is necessary to retain the original meaning.

Even if we adopt your stylistic preference - because that's all it is - then your sophistry still doesn't support your baseless accusation, since changing the word "me" to the word "you" neither misrepresented what you said nor constitutes inventing a quote.
 
You said there was a mathematical model that could show 'why and when one changes from ad-hoc modifications to current theory to shifting to an entirely new theory'. You didn't explain what that meant, and you knew it wouldn't be clear to non-mathematicians, which is why you said it. There are a couple of excellent mathematicians here, I'm not one of them. You hoped to intimidate me. I understood you as saying that you can explain the progress of science by applying a mathematical model, divorced from the activity that produces it, i.e no need for social science here. You then edited your post to explain what you meant, but again did it in such a highly arrogant way that was meant to let us all know how superior you are, and still didn't provide clarity.

Maths doesn't make me queasy, people applying inappropriately abstract concepts to the messy stuff of human society, that makes me feel queasy because it seems mad, divorced from life. If that's not what you were doing, then fair enough, but you write in such a way as to make it very difficult to understand what you mean, it's like you're arguing with a version of yourself.

I don't think my personal visceral reactions do constitute arguments, they're descriptions not explanations - sometimes that's all we have and its imperious to insist otherwise.

Ok maybe we got off on the wrong foot here, and I wasn't trying to intimidate you, I guess I was just assuming you had more background knowledge. As for clarity, let me restart and try to be more "pedagogical" rather than "argumentative" for lack of a better way of putting it.

In science - specifically physics - what we do is use models to explain observations. These models are expressed in precise mathematical terms. For example if I let some objects fall to the ground then I can observe the height from which I let them fall and the time they took to hit the ground. These constitute observations, they are the data. I can then use a model, for example Newtonian gravity, to explain these observations. In particular, I can use this model to predict the time the objects took to hit the ground based on the height from which they are falling. Fundamentally, that's what science is, finding models to explain and predict observations. The question then becomes, out of a number of different models for explaining a given set of observations, which should I choose? That's the problem of model selection. There are many ways to do this, but since the advent of algorithmic information theory in the 60s and 70s there is one related set of formalisms that is particularly suited to formalizing that which is called paradigm shifts (which are, in and of themselves, merely instances of model selection) and that is where Kolmogorov and Turing come in.

Let's introduce some notation first. Both observations and models will be given as a finite string of symbols from a finite alphabet, enclosed in quotes. For example if we say that the symbol L represents letting go off an object and the symbol D represents the object falling down, then "LDLDLDLD" represents the observation of letting go off an object 4 times and watching it fall down 4 times. Two dots (..) will represent an arbitrarily large yet still finite number of repetitions of the preceding characters. For example "LD.." represents letting go off an object and watching it fall down an arbitrarily large number of times. | will be used to denote length, for example |"LDLD"| = 4. Lastly, -> represents a mapping and will be used in model descriptions. This will become clear in a moment.

Now suppose we have the observation "LD.." and we are looking for a model for this observation. In particular, and this is the crucial point, note that observation has a certain pattern. Writing it out a bit longer "LDLDLDLD.." you can see there's a pattern there, every L is succeeded by a D. The other part of the crucial point is that such strings can be compressed. We could write the data "LD.." as the combination of "L->LD" and "L..". We'll call the original "LD.." the data, "L->LD" the model, and "L.." the compressed data. The original data can be recovered by applying the model to the compressed data. In our little toy example the model "L->LD" is a crude law of gravity, saying that if you let go off something then it falls down. This brings us to model selection, which model should I choose? The answer being, you should choose the model such that the concatenation of the model and the compressed data has minimum length (the minimum such achievable length is called the Kolmogorov complexity of the data).

Now for how this ties into the question of either adding an ad-hoc modification to an existing model or switching to an entirely different model (the normal science vs paradigm shift). Suppose you have data D and two competing models M and M' giving the same compression ratio of the data with |M| << |M'|. At this point you're going with M, given that it leads to a smaller length of the model+compressed data. Now suppose new data comes in that isn't explained by M (those "new facts" that you referred to). We have the choice of either adding an ad-hoc modification to M or switch to M'. At first we'd add an ad-hoc modification to M, making M slightly larger. If we keep doing this though then at some point we'll have made M so large that it has become larger than M', rather than |M| < |M'| it is now |M| > |M'| and hence we switch from M to M' - that's the paradigm shift. That's what I meant by saying that formalisms exist in which the notion of why and when to switch from adding ad-hoc modifications to existing models to using an entirely different model can be made precise.

And lastly for the disclaimers. First of all, I have of course left out a whole lot of stuff and took some shortcuts to try to make it easy and so there are several technical inaccuracies in the above. Secondly, this particular formalism (and there are many related ones) isn't how this is done in practice. Foremost because Kolmogorov complexity is undecidable (there is no possible algorithm that will give you the Kolmogorov complexity of an arbitrary string) and also because actually formalizing actual physics models and data in this way would be an incredible amount of work for little practical benefit. What it does do, however, is give a precise formal notion as to why and when either ad-hoc modifications to existing models are made or entirely different models are substituted. Edit: As a last disclaimer, since you brought up the social sciences, if your models and data are not mathematically precise then they are not amenable to algorithmic information theory and the above obviously doesn't apply. I'm not familiar enough with social sciences to readily tell, so for sake of argument just assume I'm talking here physics only.
 
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Even if we adopt your stylistic preference - because that's all it is - then your sophistry still doesn't support your baseless accusation, since changing the word "me" to the word "you" neither misrepresented what you said nor constitutes inventing a quote.
when I said you lied above I was talking about the post where you mention feyerabend and kuhn and attribute to me things I didn't say.
 
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No thanks, I'm not interested in whatever arbitrary social norms you demand me to abide by (the "be less of a dickhead" part) or whatever social credit system that you've set up to measure it (the "factors at play" in likes). Indeed, unless these likes express agreement with a particular argument I couldn't care less about them. You've made clear that they don't, hence I'll just ignore them.
Hehehe.
 
when I said you lied above I was talking about the post where you mention feyerabend and kuhn and attribute to me things I didn't say.

You stated:
I did not present the views of one scientist as proof positive there's alien life.

This is what I said:
Pickman presented the claim by an individual scientist that the Martian meteorite constitutes solid evidence of extraterrestrial life.

That doesn't say that you presented the view of one scientist as proof positive there's alien life, it says that you presented a claim by one scientist saying so. I did not attribute the claim of alien life to you, I said you presented one scientist's claim to that effect.
 
You stated:


This is what I said:


That doesn't say that you presented the view of one scientist as proof positive there's alien life, it says that you presented a claim by one scientist saying so. I did not attribute the claim of alien life to you, I said you presented one scientist's claim to that effect.
Er I said this scientist believes that viking found life on Mars in 1976, nothing about Martian meteorites. But this is only one thing you claim I said which I didn't.
 
Er I said this scientist believes that viking found life on Mars in 1976, nothing about Martian meteorites. But this is only one thing you claim I said which I didn't.

Oh right, apologies, I thought it was about the ALH84001 thing (Martian meteorite which was claimed by some scientists to constitute evidence of extraterrestrial life, there was a whole fuzz about it).
 
Ok maybe we got off on the wrong foot here, and I wasn't trying to intimidate you, I guess I was just assuming you had more background knowledge. As for clarity, let me restart and try to be more "pedagogical" rather than "argumentative" for lack of a better way of putting it.

In science - specifically physics - what we do is use models to explain observations. These models are expressed in precise mathematical terms. For example if I let some objects fall to the ground then I can observe the height from which I let them fall and the time they took to hit the ground. These constitute observations, they are the data. I can then use a model, for example Newtonian gravity, to explain these observations. In particular, I can use this model to predict the time the objects took to hit the ground based on the height from which they are falling. Fundamentally, that's what science is, finding models to explain and predict observations. The question then becomes, out of a number of different models for explaining a given set of observations, which should I choose? That's the problem of model selection. There are many ways to do this, but since the advent of algorithmic information theory in the 60s and 70s there is one related set of formalisms that is particularly suited to formalizing that which is called paradigm shifts (which are, in and of themselves, merely instances of model selection) and that is where Kolmogorov and Turing come in.

Let's introduce some notation first. Both observations and models will be given as a finite string of symbols from a finite alphabet, enclosed in quotes. For example if we say that the symbol L represents letting go off an object and the symbol D represents the object falling down, then "LDLDLDLD" represents the observation of letting go off an object 4 times and watching it fall down 4 times. Two dots (..) will represent an arbitrarily large yet still finite number of repetitions of the preceding characters. For example "LD.." represents letting go off an object and watching it fall down an arbitrarily large number of times. | will be used to denote length, for example |"LDLD"| = 4. Lastly, -> represents a mapping and will be used in model descriptions. This will become clear in a moment.

Now suppose we have the observation "LD.." and we are looking for a model for this observation. In particular, and this is the crucial point, note that observation has a certain pattern. Writing it out a bit longer "LDLDLDLD.." you can see there's a pattern there, every L is succeeded by a D. The other part of the crucial point is that such strings can be compressed. We could write the data "LD.." as the combination of "L->LD" and "L..". We'll call the original "LD.." the data, "L->LD" the model, and "L.." the compressed data. The original data can be recovered by applying the model to the compressed data. In our little toy example the model "L->LD" is a crude law of gravity, saying that if you let go off something then it falls down. This brings us to model selection, which model should I choose? The answer being, you should choose the model such that the concatenation of the model and the compressed data has minimum length (the minimum such achievable length is called the Kolmogorov complexity of the data).

Now for how this ties into the question of either adding an ad-hoc modification to an existing model or switching to an entirely different model (the normal science vs paradigm shift). Suppose you have data D and two competing models M and M' giving the same compression ratio of the data with |M| << |M'|. At this point you're going with M, given that it leads to a smaller length of the model+compressed data. Now suppose new data comes in that isn't explained by M (those "new facts" that you referred to). We have the choice of either adding an ad-hoc modification to M or switch to M'. At first we'd add an ad-hoc modification to M, making M slightly larger. If we keep doing this though then at some point we'll have made M so large that it has become larger than M', rather than |M| < |M'| it is now |M| > |M'| and hence we switch from M to M' - that's the paradigm shift. That's what I meant by saying that formalisms exist in which the notion of why and when to switch from adding ad-hoc modifications to existing models to using an entirely different model can be made precise.

And lastly for the disclaimers. First of all, I have of course left out a whole lot of stuff and took some shortcuts to try to make it easy and so there are several technical inaccuracies in the above. Secondly, this particular formalism (and there are many related ones) isn't how this is done in practice. Foremost because Kolmogorov complexity is undecidable (there is no possible algorithm that will give you the Kolmogorov complexity of an arbitrary string) and also because actually formalizing actual physics models and data in this way would be an incredible amount of work for little practical benefit. What it does do, however, is give a precise formal notion as to why and when either ad-hoc modifications to existing models are made or entirely different models are substituted. Edit: As a last disclaimer, since you brought up the social sciences, if your models and data are not mathematically precise then they are not amenable to algorithmic information theory and the above obviously doesn't apply. I'm not familiar enough with social sciences to readily tell, so for sake of argument just assume I'm talking here physics only.

Thank you for the explanation, I did find that interesting.

I'm not sure why you would assume I have more background knowledge of a specialist area though. Perhaps this is part of the problem here- you assume people are arguing from and for the same models, and values, and yet, we're not. I understand what a scientific model is in physics and your explanation makes sense in that context. I suppose I don't think of only physics when I think of science, and I don't think that all science should proceed as though it is physics, or as though the underlying physics is the true science. So your argument did appear to be very abstract in the wider context of science.

My mention of social science wasn't about whether this model could be applied to that, and more an acknowledgement of other factors, social,political, that make up the complex activity that is the generation of scientific knowledge, including physics.

Anyway, I do appreciate the explanation, but it's a huge detour from the discussion on the thread so perhaps we should leave it there.
 
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