Cid
Proper break this time
So no intervention then. Let Gadaffi continue? Watch him shell the shit out of Benghazi etc?
Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement
- Thread starter ernestolynch
- Start date
So no intervention then. Let Gadaffi continue? Watch him shell the shit out of Benghazi etc?
dylans
overlord of all acorns
I addressed the point directly. No it didn't drop for Southern Iraq at all. Operation Southern watch began on 27 August 1992 following UN resolution 688 and ended with the invasion in 2003. The point is you don't know your history.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
No you didnt, you cheeky little fibber. And excuse me for forgetting my dates and not bothering to google them. Point stands, as you recognised earlier, before realising how you were trapping yourself.
(edit, having checked, it wasnt the NO Fly Zone, it was the fact that the yanks decided that helicopters didnt count, and thus could be used to wipe out the advancing marsh arabs. The point, for my argument, remains essentially the same.)
dylans
overlord of all acorns
no no no you don't.This is not a simple case of forgetting a date. You raised the question of no fly zones in Iraq and then attacked me for celebrating an event THAT NEVER HAPPENED. You have totally discredited yourself.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
If I were you. I would stop digging and hope people don't notice that you have just made a complete prat of yourself. Don't worry, I won't tell
likesfish
You can't park here sir
china possibly iran neither of which dylan apart would anyone consider progressive outfits.
The problem for Dylan is anyone trying sell the newspaper on a corner of tripoli either disappeared or joined in praising the great leader.
Any trade unionists in Libya would be part of the regime. Dictators don't tolerate any org that they don't control.
if they Libyans are smart they liberalize the economy even the Chinese have done that then use the considerable tax revenues OIL and Gas companies need no subsidy or low tax regime to attract them to make Libya a better place.
could for example build huge solar farms to flog leccy to the west. tourists from the west beaches cheaper than Italy and less repressive than dubai although a foxtons in tripoli I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy why not have the rich shop there.
pipelines form chad and sudan doable and manufactured goods into africa even set up factories to flogg stuff to the rest of africa.
libya has had 6 months of war rather than 30 and gadaffi has had the entire country destroyed by the usaf TWICE
The problem for Dylan is anyone trying sell the newspaper on a corner of tripoli either disappeared or joined in praising the great leader.
Any trade unionists in Libya would be part of the regime. Dictators don't tolerate any org that they don't control.
if they Libyans are smart they liberalize the economy even the Chinese have done that then use the considerable tax revenues OIL and Gas companies need no subsidy or low tax regime to attract them to make Libya a better place.
could for example build huge solar farms to flog leccy to the west. tourists from the west beaches cheaper than Italy and less repressive than dubai although a foxtons in tripoli I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy why not have the rich shop there.
pipelines form chad and sudan doable and manufactured goods into africa even set up factories to flogg stuff to the rest of africa.
libya has had 6 months of war rather than 30 and gadaffi has had the entire country destroyed by the usaf TWICE
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
No, I am perfectly happy with my post, thank you dylans. I am just uncerftain as to why you cant see the contradiction between supporting the imperialsit favoured Walesa (as I'm sure you, quite rightly, did) and not supporting the, also imperialist supported, NTC?
Divisive Cotton
Now I just have my toy soldiers
i thought you was leading him into a trap with this question about the northern no-fly zone (which they didn't drop)
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
i tried
Probably should have googled exactly what happened when first, so I didn't fuck it up
dylans
overlord of all acorns
He thought so too but it blew up in his face
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
basic point still stands tho. By saying helicopters didnt count, it exposed their hypocrisy and damned the uprising to defeat. Pretty much everyone I knew at the time who had been invovled in the anti-war campaign did decide it was tactically more astute to shut up about Saddams innate right to fly for the time being.
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the detailed reply but, now it's me with no time on my hands to continue... will be back at the weekend.
Cid
Proper break this time
Yeah, Iran possibly, but they have problems enough of their own, China I think lean much more towards proxies these days and their relationship with the Gaddafi regime was pretty complicated... More likely to wait then move in with reconstruction projects etc. I would imagine the majority of rebels wouldn't welcome either let alone actually request help from them.
The capitalists on R4 certainly framed it in terms of development; the NTC will actually be in a pretty good position when they take power as Libya has never really developed any of its assets; this is where capitalism sees enormous opportunities, oil is one thing, but an entire country's worth of development is a great environment for speculation. And, as you say, libya has some very good selling points, better climate than the Gulf states and it has Leptis Magna.
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
TBH the Iraqis hood winked them on that claiming as all the bridges were bombed they needed to use helicopters for travel.The Americans
wanting to be magnanimous in victory said sure.And then couldn't do anything when instead of air ambulances the gun ships started flying.
Cock up rather than conspiracy.
As is so often the case.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
elbows
Well-Known Member
Thats still the most disturbing aspect of the conflict for me. It still would not surprise me if Gaddafi did use some mercenaries, but not on the scale that the early, and deadly, rumours suggested.
I'll give Tripoli a little more time before I start wailing about the poor security situation, early indicators are a mixed bag, with more worrying signs than good, although not worst-case horror, not yet anyways.
I'll give Tripoli a little more time before I start wailing about the poor security situation, early indicators are a mixed bag, with more worrying signs than good, although not worst-case horror, not yet anyways.
elbows
Well-Known Member
An intriguing little side-story about evidence that the adopted daughter Gaddafi claimed was killed in the bombing decades ago, is alive.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0826/1224303001756.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0826/1224303001756.html
dylans
overlord of all acorns
I think he probably has used some mercenaries. He made a big deal of his "African revolutionary" credentials. However what has been disturbing about this conflict since the very beginning, is the witch hunt character of the label in which every regime loyalist and every black person becomes labelled "mercenary" regardless of the truth or otherwise of the accusation. This is something that has been repeated unquestionably by the Western media and to an increasing degree.There was disturbing footage today on Sky of terrified black people been roughed up in the back of trucks and the assumption that they were mercenaries was unquestionably repeated by the journos on the scene.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
there were of course reports months ago about his use of mercenaries
likesfish
You can't park here sir
their were rumors of American mercenaries in the Falklands ( probably started by some Argentinians speaking English with an American accent).
So in a much more chaotic situation not being a Libyan is not going to be a good situation to be in. Journos are probably going to repeat what they are told being a war correspondent is "interesting" enough without pissing off a bunch of armed rebels.
Gaddafi would only need to use a few mercenaries or have a few immigrants who'd joined his forces years ago to start the witch hunt
So in a much more chaotic situation not being a Libyan is not going to be a good situation to be in. Journos are probably going to repeat what they are told being a war correspondent is "interesting" enough without pissing off a bunch of armed rebels.
Gaddafi would only need to use a few mercenaries or have a few immigrants who'd joined his forces years ago to start the witch hunt
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Crikey
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
Just in case it's not been noted, Liam Fox's emphasis in interviews today on targetting "the regime" and absolutely not individuals, despite being repeatedly edged towards the latter by interviewers (not surprising as the RAF is clearly trying to kill Gaddafi), is entirely because that's the only way to avoid war crimes charges against the UK Government.
Even that depends on a very, very generous interpretation of the UN Resolution regarding "protecting civilians".
It's clearly bullshit, and the UK is currently engaged in war crimes - except the UK is a permanent member of the UN Security Council and therefore we have a veto on such matters. Clever how that works - 'that' being international 'law'.
Even that depends on a very, very generous interpretation of the UN Resolution regarding "protecting civilians".
It's clearly bullshit, and the UK is currently engaged in war crimes - except the UK is a permanent member of the UN Security Council and therefore we have a veto on such matters. Clever how that works - 'that' being international 'law'.
The more I read of this the less I care about what happens to Libyans rebels I truly hope they get the same in return. Fuck 'em, I hope it all goes tits up and Al-Q turns the place into another Afghanistan.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Iraq was pretty tedious in regards that issue too, trying to pretend that was not about regime change either, hence the awful WMD pretext. Made even more absurd considering our governments loudly gave these leaders an opportunity to step down and thus avoid conflict, and the USA couldn't keep quiet about it being regime change either.
I think one of the reasons our actions in Libya have not attracted so much protest, is the speed with which it all happened. If the buildup had been Iraq-paced, we'd of been drooling mad at the bullshit long before a weapon was fired.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Thats hardly going to help any of the innocent victims though is it.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
Yep, Blair was off the hook (from war crimes charges) all the while his belief the UK was under threat was 'honestly held', no matter how ludicrious. The dodgy was engineered to provide support for that bogus belief.
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