Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

[elbows]

Thanks for the extensive details on the timetable of events in the east classicdish, many of them ring true but not all, esp Benghazi. I dont think I can continue to debate some of these details right now because I am presently stunned by the horrors that might be unfolding right now, and the more I talk about this stuff the more I sound like the twitter inaccuracies are a bigger deal to me than it really is. Its my fault, and I dont want to spend another minute pointing my negativity at anyone other than the regime.

Before the uprising began I had no idea of the extent to which non-regime media was banned from Libya, I knew it was very bad but I didnt know it was so absolute. Likewise I knew that Gadaffi was a complete fuck but I didnt know quite how vindictive he could be to the population at large when push came to shove. Fucking hell, if I thought the lack of solid & timely news & images was bad in recent day, its complete torture right now with all these reports of the airforce , cant begin to imagine what it is like for people who have friends or family in the city

Im sure we are well used to the mess when it comes to issues of how much to deal with brutal regimes whose resources & cash we want, but I would hope at the very minimum it would not be hard to find consensus that at an absolute bare minimum we should have some means of having at least some media presense in any country that wants to do a serious amount of business with us.

Argh, I cant even think straight right now, watching the Libya events unfold has been so different to watching Egypt on so many levels.

 

[butchersapron]

OK, the regime falls with this one. There is no dictator to be chucked overboard to save the dictatorship, they are now as one by their actions The regime is gone/going. How that feeds back into Egypt and Tunisia then elsewhere, in what making a revolution means - i.e total overthrow...is next up...

 

[OneStrike]

Well i have just seen a youtube clip of some of the injuries of the dead. Bodies literally ripped in half, on beds with torsos seperated from legs, arms completely blown off e.t.c. Truly sickening, at the least they must have been attacked with extremely heavy guns, if not bombs (i don't what would be most likely to cause such injuries).

It's now been deleted for violating the terms of services, it must be hellish out there.


The doctors were taking photos of the deceased, their injuries, and what i presume was the death certificate indicating presumably the cause of death (bullet to the head, whatever it is). The fact that they must have been doing this asap suggests they want to make sure the truth gets out (it has, it will be online somewhere even if youtube has deleted. I imagine the doctors must also fear for their own lives, so are doing it straight away. Brave, brave people.

 

[elbows]

Its also been highly depressing hearing the cries from Libya for the international community to do something. Im sure most of us know that things arent setup to work well in this regard at the best of times, and certainly not on such short timescales.

Al Jazeera reports that the people in the jets that went to Malta are claiming to be airforce colonels asking for asylum. They claim they were ordered to bombard protesters in the Benghazi region, and these 2 were the only ones from the squadron who decided not to do it and went to Malta instead.

Edit - oops sorry I see OneStrike already posted this, apologies, head fried.

 

[Streathamite]

hopefully Gaddafi's doesn't get out less than hundred deaths can be put down to normal policing mistakes etc but he went for broke

The saudis are old enemies of his; They'd also see him as a risk-too destabilising

 

[butchersapron]

Thanks for the extensive details on the timetable of events in the east classicdish, many of them ring true but not all, esp Benghazi. I dont think I can continue to debate some of these details right now because I am presently stunned by the horrors that might be unfolding right now, and the more I talk about this stuff the more I sound like the twitter inaccuracies are a bigger deal to me than it really is. Its my fault, and I dont want to spend another minute pointing my negativity at anyone other than the regime.

Before the uprising began I had no idea of the extent to which non-regime media was banned from Libya, I knew it was very bad but I didnt know it was so absolute. Likewise I knew that Gadaffi was a complete fuck but I didnt know quite how vindictive he could be to the population at large when push came to shove. Fucking hell, if I thought the lack of solid & timely news & images was bad in recent day, its complete torture right now with all these reports of the airforce , cant begin to imagine what it is like for people who have friends or family in the city

Im sure we are well used to the mess when it comes to issues of how much to deal with brutal regimes whose resources & cash we want, but I would hope at the very minimum it would not be hard to find consensus that at an absolute bare minimum we should have some means of having at least some media presense in any country that wants to do a serious amount of business with us.

Argh, I cant even think straight right now, watching the Libya events unfold has been so different to watching Egypt on so many levels.

This is the 'nasty' stuff we talked about on the Egypt thread.

 

[teqniq]

Twitter:

evanchill Evan Hill
He says this information has been shared by Malta with "EU partners."
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

evanchill Evan Hill
AJE correspondent in Malta says senior Libyan air force defectors have shared classified info with interrogators re: military activity.
1 minute ago

E2A

evanchill Evan Hill
Libyan deputy ambassador to UN on AJE live now. Calls events in #Libya a "genocide." #feb17

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Its also been highly depressing hearing the cries from Libya for the international community to do something. Im sure most of us know that things arent setup to work well in this regard at the best of times, and certainly not on such short timescales.

There's one entity nearby that could at least enforce a no-fly zone, but does anyone think that the US Sixth Fleet getting involved is a good idea?

 

[butchersapron]

This is how you won't die daffy

 

[elbows]

This is the 'nasty' stuff we talked about on the Egypt thread.

Yeah, we obviously still dont know everything that went on behind the scenes in Egypt to give us the complete picture, and may never find out, but certainly I had not yet got over my sheer joy that the Egyptian people, so far, got away without insane levels of military brutality.

Can imagine the likes of the house of Saud cheering on these Libyan atrocities, for it will give dictators everywhere some hope that the brutal fear they hold over the masses is not completely lost, and that people will not come to see the task of overthrowing them as being 'too easy' . Clearly too premature to draw any conclusions at this stage though, since Ive no clue what will happen next in Libya let alone anywhere else.

Curse Gaddafi for seemingly being clever enough to have a structure to his military which enabled horrors to continue despite some high level defections.

 

[Idris2002]

That's from the siege of the Moncada Palace, I take it? (BA's picture, I mean)

 

[butchersapron]

That's from the siege of the Moncada Palace, I take it? (BA's picture, I mean)

Whatever the pres palace was called, that's it.

 

[Streathamite]

Two Libyan Ambassadors have resigned-the ones in Indonesia & Bangladesh

 

[Idris2002]

How MG will die:

 

[butchersapron]

Prayers sent

 

[dylans]

Channel 4. Guy in London just climbed onto the balcony of the embassy and changed the Libyan flag

 

[Tankus]

the two malta mirages looked like they were armed with a pair of these

SNEB 68mm unguided rockets ....fairly indiscriminate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNEB

 

[elbows]

Im in no mood for this sort of shit right now, via the beeb:

1829: The White House says it is analysing Sunday's speech by Col Gadaffi's son, Saif al-Islam, to determine whether it offers possibilities for democratic changes in Libya. A US official says the administration is seeking clarification from senior Libyan officials about their intentions, AP reports. President Barack Obama was briefed by National Security Adviser Tom Donilon on Sunday night and is being kept abreast of events, the official said, adding that the US administration is considering "all appropriate actions".

 

[quimcunx]

I hope those pilots don't have families in libya.

It has to be a shot to the head now. NOW would be best. Praying some palace body guard type will be sufficiently disgusted by lack of humanity.

 

[Idris2002]

Praying some palace body guard type will be sufficiently disgusted by lack of humanity.

Well, that's how Laurent Kabila got his. Cut the head off the snake.

 

[teqniq]

Im in no mood for this sort of shit right now, via the beeb:

well apparently:

Tripolitanian Libyan
@
@Dima_Khatib Yes its about time for an emergency meeting.
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Dima_Khatib Dima Khatib أنا ديمة
Qatar Prime Minister is calling Sec General of Arab League Amro Moussa to hold emergency Arab League meeting on #Libya #feb17 #qatar #arab
3 minutes ago

Which is something, better than the anodyne nonsense from the White house anyway.

Tripolitanian goes on to tweet:

No really, we don't mind if a country sends its military to #Libya to stop the massacre, its gone too far I think.

 

[likesfish]

the sixth fleet should take out the Libyan air-force take them minutes couple of f18s inbound even the most heroic bomber pilot is going to flee.
stopping people bombing civilians that's a no brainier.
puts a lot of pressure on the regime for little risk to US forces 21st century jets against 1960s jets no real contest.
Obama could do that and look good.

 

[dylans]

Good site here for tracking twitter feeds on libya

http://blogsofwar.com/libya/

 

[teqniq]

70 rights groups urge US & EU to eject Libya from U.N.
Human Rights Council for "crimes against humanity"

 

[Idris2002]

Would the Egyptian air force have the range to dogfight over Tripoli?

 

[butchersapron]

Would the Egyptian air force have the range to dogfight over Tripoli?

They're doing fuck all no matter what.Their 67-74 onwards shame will equal this if they sit on their hands. As they will.

 

[Idris2002]

They're doing fuck all no matter what.Their 67-74 onwards shame will equal this if they sit on their hands. As they will.

And the domestic consequences of that in Egypt will be. . .

 

[butchersapron]

The future...when the lybians (?) win the regime goes - what lesson does that give Egyptians ..

 

[elbows]

Sorry for the large put&paste job fromthe Guardian live page but its got lots of apparent detail.

7.24pm: A friend of the Libyan novelist Hisham Matar has passed on some details to the Guardian of what he has been seeing and hearing in Tripoli in the last few hours.

He tells us that eight large carrier helicopters were spotted dropping ammunition from the south of Tripoli to Khamis Military facility in the North East side of Tripoli and passed on unconfirmed rumours that two helicopters had actually been brought down after coming fire fire elsewhere.

The man, who will just refer to as 'Ahmed', added:

Though interrupted and random; gunfire remains to be heard in Tripoli with the occasional loud sound of what could be bomb sounds.

Around residential areas (understandably) the city roads are completely absent of civilians – everyone is huddled at home or just in front of their houses to avoid possible confrontation with the regime.

Shops are shut and mosques are hardly attended during prayer times.

7.16pm: It remains very difficult to get a sense of what is happening on the ground in Libya, but many reports suggest that the violence is intensifying.

Reuters has filed this report about claims that anti-government activists and others in Tripoli are being hit from the air:

Tripoli residents gave conflicting reports on Monday, with some saying they could hear gunfire in the Libyan capital and a political activist telling Al Jazeera warplanes were bombing the city.

"We don't know what is going on, all we can hear are occasional gunshots," one resident who lives near the city's central Green Square told Reuters.

"I just hear gunshots sometimes. I am at home guarding my family because the situation is unstable. No one knows what will happen," another resident said.

But Adel Mohamed Saleh, who called himself a political activist in Tripoli, said the aerial bombing had initially targeted a funeral procession.

"What we are witnessing today is unimaginable. Warplanes and helicopters are indiscriminately bombing one area after another. There are many, many dead," Saleh told al Jazeera television in a live broadcast.

"Our people are dying. It is the policy of scorched earth." he said. "Every 20 minutes they are bombing."

Asked if the attacks were still happening he said: "It is continuing, it is continuing. Anyone who moves, even if they are in their car they will hit you."

There was no independent verification of the report but Fathi al-Warfali, the Libyan activist who heads the Swiss-based Libyan Committee for Truth and Justice, who was taking part in a protest outside U.N. European headquarters in Geneva said he had heard the same reports.

"Military planes are attacking civilians, protesters in Tripoli now. The civilians are frightened," al-Warfali told Reuters.

There also seem to be some reports that the navy may have been joining in the attacks on Tripoli.

 

[likesfish]

They're doing fuck all no matter what.Their 67-74 onwards shame will equal this if they sit on their hands. As they will.

shame a couple of F16s rock up the Libyan air-force will evaporate

the yanks could stay off shore and lock radar on any fast jet even those ancient airplanes will have enough electronics to tell you something that really does'nt have your best interests at heart has got your number.