John Cruddas MP .. alleges government pushing immigration to undermine unions etc
- Thread starter durruti02
- Start date
I think that we're all agreed that restriction isn't possible - all that happens is that you further marginalise and endanger people who will go to almost any lengths to get here, and who will succeed one way or the other.
The subject of the OP was New Labour's duplicitousness in pretending that closed borders is a genuine possibility, whilst their business cronies benefit from cheap and un-unionised migrant labour.
The subject of the OP was New Labour's duplicitousness in pretending that closed borders is a genuine possibility, whilst their business cronies benefit from cheap and un-unionised migrant labour.
dennisr
the acceptable face
durruti02 said:
It always seems to be the same approach from a number of disillusioned folk on these boards. You create a straw man (usualy assisted by the more inaine SWP members on these boards), an easy target and equate this with the 'left' and then expose how 'irrelevant' they are.
The SWP members will never be the ones to point out that they represent one very confused and largely irrelevent type of 'left'. They also like the clock you disguise them with. So the myth continues that the cynics are exposing the 'left' rather than the SWP. The cynics themselves tend to offer nothing beyond the 'realism' of pandering to the most backward viewpoints. At least the SWP members are not guilt of that (well... no conciously anyway, but that is another matter).
Whenever the tedious 'issue' of immigrants taking 'our' jobs lowering 'our' wages etc has come up I have repeated the need to organise immigrant workers. It is not the easy option but it is the only realistic one if we are going to be able to defend our conditions. And cutting across the popular racism the cynics are pandering too,? - IMO, the most effective way is to unite people over the issues they have in common.
The Gama workers struggle in Dublin - led by the SP, who have never simply 'talked the talk' - shows what is possible. Cutting across the popular racism that prevails at the moment in Ireland. Thousands of Dublin workers lined the streets to cheer the Turkish workers marching through the city. The unity of common experience against the 'them' and 'us' attitude was made. That is repeated again and again and again in countless small disputes in this country too - ones without the publicity, often on a smaller scale and carried out by LEFT wing trade unionists (regardless of party affiliation or none) - not irrelevent wankers on websites who, it seems, are incapable of recognising thier own failings is critisising thier straw men.
In the building trade alone I can count many decent folk I know who have to carry out such work, or folk I know in Unison in Hospitals, or folk in Food paking places - all left wingers. Sometimes one of these individuals will also be critical of my party - the difference is i respect these people and know they are raising any critisisms they have out of a desire to improve the effectiveness of all campaigns of working people. I do not think that is true of some of the cyber 'critics' here, who seem to be doing nothing more than legitimising their own cynical compromises with 'reality' to themselves.
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
1. Steinbeck was writing a novel.Fruitloop said:
2. The "immigrants" in that instance were actually citizens of the United States, and preventing immigration would have had no effect whatsoever.
3. If it happens as you say it does, show us some evidence! If this is the best you've got, then you've got nothing.
Master of the fucking obvious, aren't you.Donna Ferentes said:
I don't actually have time to go searching for stats at the moment, and for some reason the govt seem slightly coy about publishing their 'Migrant Workers versus Shafted Workers by Industry Index' figures. On a purely cricumstantial note I can tell you that there are plenty of really shitty, really badly paid jobs that have pretty much no English-born workers at all - hotel and restaurant KPs, toilet attendants, office-cleaners in the City. Why do you think this is? The meeja are going with the usual canard - the inherent laziness and unreasonable demands of the soft native w/c - is this your opinion?
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
1. With no evidence, your case is threadbare.
2. You miss (once again) the point that most jobs which are done largely by immigrants tend always to have been done by immigrants. They are lower-paid and therefore the immigrants tend to do them: this is a different process from immigrants bringing down wages (and if it were not, there should be evidence available to support your claim). This point has been made to you several times but it is not apparently sinking in, however bleedin' obvious it is.
2. You miss (once again) the point that most jobs which are done largely by immigrants tend always to have been done by immigrants. They are lower-paid and therefore the immigrants tend to do them: this is a different process from immigrants bringing down wages (and if it were not, there should be evidence available to support your claim). This point has been made to you several times but it is not apparently sinking in, however bleedin' obvious it is.
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
Incidentally, even where industries previously did not require (or use) large amounts of immigrant labour (bar work, perhaps fruit-picking) they were always low paid. Not only did immigration not affect wages, but it occurred because native-born workers weren't availble to do the jobs.
Once more for the lobotomized, and then I really have to do some work myself.
There are lots of jobs which in their present state are pretty much unfit to be done by anybody. Long hours, illegally bad working conditions, pay that no-one can live on in anything but squalor, job-security of absolute zero etc etc. There is no need for the employers to treat their workers in this way, and no unionised workforce with any clout at all would put up with it. The only reason why it is allowed to continue is because a) there is a financial advantage to the employers b) the govt benefits rather tangentially from it, but enough so that they are prepared to turn a blind eye to the real culprits ie the employers themselves c) if you have a constant supply of migrant workers and illegals who are sufficiently desperate, then there is almost no level of bad pay/humiliation/danger that would mean you can't get anyone to do a job - there will always be some poor bastard desparate enough.
Who gives a fuck if it's always been the case that migrants have kept this corrupt process in motion? Your argument is on the level of 'the poor are always with us', and it stinks, tbh.
There are lots of jobs which in their present state are pretty much unfit to be done by anybody. Long hours, illegally bad working conditions, pay that no-one can live on in anything but squalor, job-security of absolute zero etc etc. There is no need for the employers to treat their workers in this way, and no unionised workforce with any clout at all would put up with it. The only reason why it is allowed to continue is because a) there is a financial advantage to the employers b) the govt benefits rather tangentially from it, but enough so that they are prepared to turn a blind eye to the real culprits ie the employers themselves c) if you have a constant supply of migrant workers and illegals who are sufficiently desperate, then there is almost no level of bad pay/humiliation/danger that would mean you can't get anyone to do a job - there will always be some poor bastard desparate enough.
Who gives a fuck if it's always been the case that migrants have kept this corrupt process in motion? Your argument is on the level of 'the poor are always with us', and it stinks, tbh.
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
Firstly, you're a disgusting liar, because I have not argued this and you know it: I have argued that the original claim you made has little basis in fact. You are obliged to lie because you cannot defend that claim.Fruitloop said:
It is particularly vile because you yourself wish to keep immigrants out: you can scarcely be in favour of their having better working conditions when you seek to prevent them having any working conditions at all! By contrast, to suggest that I'm in favour of immigrants working in poor conditions is not only foul but stuipid: I am, of course, an immigrant worker.
Secondly, people like you who attack immigration can do nothing to prevent the division of the labour movement since you help drive the wedge between different parts of the movement. The fact that you do not care whether what you say is true or false does not help either.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
treelover said:
Welllll...I'm temping at the moment, and during the last proper recession (1990s) about 1/3 of the ad and marketing jobs in London went and, in 2001 the dotcom crash there were a similar number. Ad/marketing jobs are among the most tenuous during real recessions as it's usually the first thing that companies cut from their expenditure.
So yeah, I will be competing for work. In fact I am at the moment.
Donna; if that's what you think I'm arguing then your reading comprehension is clearly not up to this.
belboid: I meant you are wrong about whether I have or haven't seen plenty of examples of what I'm talking about. Stats will follow when I have time to dig some out, but I have my own employment to consider right now.
edited to add: and yes, I am talking about London.
belboid: I meant you are wrong about whether I have or haven't seen plenty of examples of what I'm talking about. Stats will follow when I have time to dig some out, but I have my own employment to consider right now.
edited to add: and yes, I am talking about London.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
I don't know whether anybody has responded to, I haven't read all the thread yet, but I very much agree with you. The left cannot expect the government of any sort to do what it wants, the left has to fight, instead of blaming governments or even each other.kyser_soze said:
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
if you actually read my posts, you will admit you are talking complete bollocks. I have made exactly the same arguments to dur as you have (about trade unions organising immigrants). However, you are doing the same as him, blaming the left in a simplistic fashion for problems which are far more complicated in the real world.dennisr said:
Fruitloop said:
Well Fruitloop, I dont agree with Durrutti or most of the people on here about this. I AM TOTALLY IN FAVOUR OF RESTRICTION. It already happens. People who can not afford to move dont and people who can do.
There will always be some form of restriction either based on need or based on ability. To me its common sense that every Socialist should totally oppose it being on the basis of ability to add to the Richer Nations Wealth. OTHERS SEEM MORE CONFUSED.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
How? "Machine guns on the beaches"?tbaldwin said:
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Well that's quite clearly crap, since many of those who arrive illegally do so in massive debt to people-smugglers, or attach themselves to lorries, trains planes etc so quite clearly lack of money is not a disincentive to attempting to get to the UK.
ResistanceMP3 said:
Not you best attempt at humour or a cutting arguement?
People are restricted from working or gaining any rights of residence in different ways already. But the main restriction is lack of opportunity to get here in the first place.
Those of you arguing against restrictions are perhaps being LESS THAN HONEST. Perhaps you think that everyone who can.. should go to whereever the money is NORMAN TEBBITT DAD STYLEE.
How would that make the world a better place. HOW MANY PEOPLE would die on the way?
HOW MANY LEFT BEHIND would DIE?
Free Market policies on migration are essentially FASCIST. Its about SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST.
kyser_soze said:
The Chinese workers found dead in the lorry in Dover had apparently paid £20,000 each to get here!
Even if there were totally free borders as some suggest. Things like this would go on. The kind of people who act as people smugglers would still persuade people from poorer nations with promises of huge earnings etc if they sign up with them etc.
People would still be exploited and that exploitation would get worse as the flow of migrants got bigger.
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