John Cruddas MP .. alleges government pushing immigration to undermine unions etc

[Fruitloop]

To clarify: it's not that I'm in any way opposed to immigration - the problem is capitalism. But capitalism plus economic migration is just a tool for creating the kind of atomised, disenfrachised and thus 'flexible' workforce that the bosses want. Some foreign workers might benefit in the short term, but to the detriment of the class as a whole.

 

[cemertyone]

I'll say again: the idea that there are unemployed because of immigrants, or that the latter reduce wages, is not only specious but extremely dubious plitically.

I take it you don`t work in the construction industry?.....Because the number of Polish ( and other Eastern European) workers here in the UK IS having a very large effect on workers wages.
Employers ( esp cash in hand employers) are employing these people at very low rates of pay which if they were not present in this country would mean that because of the skills shortage previously occuring before they where allowed in the UK seen wages at a considerablely higher level 10 years ago compared with today.
Also in catering the same applies..........

 

[dennisr]

Donna: what about migrant workers who are unable to defend their interests because they're not working legally. Or people who are here on a temporary basis, living in poverty here but sending enough money home for a house/deposit/whatever at home - in effect using the exchange rate to their advantage in the same way that western tourists are regularly slated for doing? Many of these have no personal stake in the conditions of the majority of UK workers.

tbaldwin: I agree completely.

You could say that about any group - say 'home owners' - tied as they are by the need to pay of mortgages etc etc etc. There are plenty of divisions placed between us but they can all be fought with the right tactics and approach - including illigallity. There are plenty of examples of 'illegal' working people (ohh the irony) having to use new methods to improve thier conditions*. The idea that these people 'using the exchange rate to thier advantage' (I would say the bosses are using the exchange rate to super-exploit this layer of workers...) do not want a better slice of the pie is daft.

The same is true for british workers across europe and the world - I used to work on sites in germany and was one of those who, in effect, undercut the conditions of German building workers. We then got screwed by the Poles who went and undercut us. The only answer is for the building unions to organise those new layers to keep all our wages up to a decent level.

Just like all working people they are trapped by thier conditions. There are plenty of examples of immigrants who while they may have dreamt once of 'going home', (once they have made thier fantasy fortunes) end up stuck in a very similar situation to the rest of us - with children being a big factor in decisions made - along with the simple fact that most do not end up with a pot of gold by anyones standards. They reality facing the vast majority of the immigrants who have ended up in the UK. Many do jobs the rest of us do not want to do and do not have to do becasue we have a slightly better 'security'.

tbaldwin talks out of an arse with a pre-conceived agenda (the 'threat' of immigrants) most of the time. The employers and the divisions they use to keep us fighting over the crumbs falling from thier tables are the threat IMO.

* added: one recent major example i Ireland - Gama workers (mainly Turkish labourers) - go to http://www.socialistworld.net/ and search for 'Gama'

 

[Donna Ferentes]

To clarify: it's not that I'm in any way opposed to immigration - the problem is capitalism. But capitalism plus economic migration is just a tool for creating the kind of atomised, disenfrachised and thus 'flexible' workforce that the bosses want. Some foreign workers might benefit in the short term, but to the detriment of the class as a whole.

But they don't. Economic imigration mostly happens when there are jobs to be had that the locals don't want to do. Nor is there any real way of preventing it and attempts to do so only whip up hatred of immigrants.

 

[dennisr]

To clarify: it's not that I'm in any way opposed to immigration - the problem is capitalism. But capitalism plus economic migration is just a tool for creating the kind of atomised, disenfrachised and thus 'flexible' workforce that the bosses want. Some foreign workers might benefit in the short term, but to the detriment of the class as a whole.

the bit I disagree with is 'some foreign workers benefit' - no, not really - they just get screwed over differently

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I take it you don`t work in the construction industry?.....Because the number of Polish ( and other Eastern European) workers here in the UK IS having a very large effect on workers wages.
Employers ( esp cash in hand employers) are employing these people at very low rates of pay which if they were not present in this country would mean that because of the skills shortage previously occuring before they where allowed in the UK seen wages at a considerablely higher level 10 years ago compared with today.
Also in catering the same applies..........

These are industries which have always had a high proportion of immigrant labour.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

It's obvious why not - you can come here from Eastern Europe, live in squalid accommodation etc while you send money home, then go back and buy a house and find some more fulfilling employment that's less well paid in the grand scheme of things. What interest would you have in the pay and conditions of UK workers in your temporarily adopted industry? Why raise a stink when unlike them you can bail out at the end of three years and go back to Lodz or wherever?

You could say that about somebody who worked in London when normally living in Newcastle. Same argument.

 

[Fruitloop]

But they don't. Economic imigration mostly happens when there are jobs to be had that the locals don't want to do. Nor is there any real way of preventing it and attempts to do so only whip up hatred of immigrants.

Why don't they want to do them? Because the money and conditions are so shit. Believe me, I've done them

 

[Fruitloop]

the bit I disagree with is 'some foreign workers benefit' - no, not really - they just get screwed over differently

Sorry, should have been 'benefit in comparison to the rest of the class'. They all get screwed over in the end.

 

[Fruitloop]

You could say that about somebody who worked in London when normally living in Newcastle. Same argument.

Except that employment law passed in London will affect Newcastle and vice versa.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Why don't they want to do them? Because the money and conditions are so shit.

And how do you imagine that will be remedied? By appealing to the government to stop the immigrants coming in so that their rich firneds can make less money? Are they likely to do that? And will that produce an upward pressure on wages? Or will they in fact stay just as low because of the aforementioned five million unemployed competing for them?

It's utterly unrealistic and blames absolutely the wrong people and locates the problem in the wrong place.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Except that employment law passed in London will affect Newcastle and vice versa.

Well, it also affects everybody working here. But you said that foreign workers often work illegally - and so they do, as do many of the people who come from depressed regions of the country into the south-east looking for work.

 

[Fruitloop]

I never suggested blaming the migrants themselves. They are doing exactly what you would expect - acting as rational and independent economic agents. Which is the problem, really.

 

[Fruitloop]

Well, it also affects everybody working here. But you said that foreign workers often work illegally - and so they do, as do many of the people who come from depressed regions of the country into the south-east looking for work.

Northeners don't have NI numbers? Lol. They're all covered in woad up there, you know.

 

[dennisr]

They all get screwed over in the end.

True but that is the reason any arguement that this layer of workers has such different interests it cannot be organised given the right approach falls on its arse.

In fact - unless we organised those immigrants we weaken our own position further. The building workers in London know this hense the campaign to unionise the big sites like Kings Cross. The east europeans are up for it when the reality of how low thier wages actually are is clearly explained. And if they don't they are only going to get screwed further - employers always want more if you show them any weakness.

The history of the US is one endless struggles - of re-unionising workforces, fighting reaction by the previously priveledged layers. Just one major example - look at the unionisation of the Chicargo stock yards - first 'natives' (established english speaking sons/daughters of immigrants) against east europeans - eventually united - then, during and after the first worls war the attempt to smash the union with cheap black labour from the south. Leading initially to the Chicargo race riots post-war and eventually to the organisation of these new workrs.

 

[Fruitloop]

Well, as an anarchist my contention was never that the State should stop these people coming - even if it were possible, which it's not.

 

[belboid]

dear god there aint half some drivel on this thread, and not just from the normal idiots (a la balders) either!

Could some of the immigration controls supporters answer a couple of simple questions I wonder?

on 'lowering wages' - surely you realise this is largely due to them being illegal. so how the hell does this lead to a support for immigration controls? It is them that are playing a significant part in ensuring people work for less than legal/decent minimums. Making all those people legal would be a massive step to doing away with such behaviour from bosses.

On borders - how strong would you like them to be? Israel like walls? Bigger taller barbed wire? Should the border guards be armed or not? How many deaths do you think would be a 'price worth paying'? And why not stop these bloody scots from coming down as well? Or those daft northerners who want to move to London, surely we should stop them too.

Well, as an anarchist my contention was never that the State should stop these people coming - even if it were possible, which it's not.

[fights urge to insert a rolleyes]
well, who the fuck would then?

 

[cemertyone]

These are industries which have always had a high proportion of immigrant labour.

Granted they have always had a high number as you imply..however the difference between times of past and NOW is very significant in that the sheer number of Polish (and other) eastern workers here in the UK is massive and nothing like what it has been in previous times.
My own head chef employess 5 polish porters who are being paid £4.50 an hour for what is back breaking work and he`s such a cunt in the manner he deals with them and i would guess this is the norm rather than the exception.

 

[belboid]

however the difference between times of past and NOW is very significant in that the sheer number of Polish (and other) eastern workers here in the UK is massive and nothing like what it has been in previous times.

rubbish. ever heard of the irish?

 

[belboid]

oh, and I take it all those anti-immigration would have been thoroughly consistent and oppossed the entry of women into the workplace 100+ years ago? Exactly the same arguments then as now.

 

[Fruitloop]

dear god there aint half some drivel on this thread, and not just from the normal idiots (a la balders) either!

Could some of the immigration controls supporters answer a couple of simple questions I wonder?

on 'lowering wages' - surely you realise this is largely due to them being illegal. so how the hell does this lead to a support for immigration controls? It is them that are playing a significant part in ensuring people work for less than legal/decent minimums. Making all those people legal would be a massive step to doing away with such behaviour from bosses.

On borders - how strong would you like them to be? Israel like walls? Bigger taller barbed wire? Should the border guards be armed or not? How many deaths do you think would be a 'price worth paying'? And why not stop these bloody scots from coming down as well? Or those daft northerners who want to move to London, surely we should stop them too.


[fights urge to insert a rolleyes]
well, who the fuck would then?

Please don't as it makes you look like a wanker.

It's not possible to stop them coming here. If people are prepared to hang on underneath trains etc to get in, then they will get in like it or not, QED. The questions are; does it have an adverse effect on the w/c as a whole, given the current situation, and is it unbelievably cynical of the current govt to give it the macho talk on immigration whilst benefiting from the economic conditions it creates? The answer to both these questions is yes, IMHO.

 

[belboid]

So what's the solution? You offer.....nothing.

Ending their illegality would be the most significant change that could be made, as you recognise there is no way such people will ever stop trying to come here. Anything else would just be window dressing, at best.

 

[Fruitloop]

Well, as long as there's capitalism, the w/c will get screwed. You were expecting a panacea?

 

[belboid]

aah the copouts cop-out. Why attack immigration then like you did? What do you expect?

You've no answers at all.

 

[Fruitloop]

I expect it to operate exactly as it does. Failing to see your point here, I must confess.

 

[Fruitloop]

The thing I was originally reacting to was the apparent assumption that immigration is umproblematic, when if the r/c can carry on importing new and un-unionised workers from a practically inexhaustable supply much faster than you can convince the existing ones that class solidarity is in their long-term interests, then it's clearly a very big fucking problem. Do I have a magic bullet for it? Of course not.

 

[belboid]

I expect it to operate exactly as it does.

god, arent you the genius?

Failing to see your point here, I must confess.

oh, obviously not.

 

[Fruitloop]

 

[dennisr]

The thing I was originally reacting to was the apparent assumption that immigration is umproblematic

I don't think anyone has a problem with the idea that immigration under this system is problematic. i was reacting to your agreement with baldwin - i assumed the comparison of unemployed 'natives' to immigrants? - you are therefore arguing that the immigrants are the problem or the cause of the problem. A baldwin tends to do repetatively. Immigrants do not cause unemployment.

Belboid rightly says that people desperate enough to travel thousands of mile, hang on the bottom of trains, risk suffocation in the backs of lorries etc are not going to be stopped - 'native' workers have to hold out thier hand, organise them through defence and improvement of thier rights.

I dont go around shouting 'no borders' in the present climate - it makes it harder to get the ear of many of those we need to convice - but at the same time I would never want to pander to the anti-immigration slant (blaiming immigrants for problems they did not create) that those like baldwin spout

 

[Fruitloop]

Then I reckon we are pretty much in agreement. FWIW I was agreeing with mr baldwin's specific post about underemployment etc - not whatever he has said elsewhere.