John Cruddas MP .. alleges government pushing immigration to undermine unions etc

[durruti02]

where have I said I think that trade unions should actively encouraged cheap labour from abroad?

last point dur, on what to do, 95% we agree. Now Socialist-Worker has always said to me, in such a situation you should fight side-by-side to achieve those 95% of things you agree upon, and make a mutual agreement to "let's see who is right about the 5% in the class struggle". Don't you think that is a reasonable and pragmatic position? Shouldn't we agree to concentrate on, and work together, on the 95% of things we agree about?

"... it sounds familiar, niclas's description of the BNP National Socialist policy, because it is what I have been listening to from you for the last six months isn't it? ... " RMP3#


RMP3 .. so if i am BNP then you must be too

so you agree with 95% of national socialism/BNP??? ( p.s. BNP are no way national socialist but hey whatever .. don't want to spoil your argument)


you still need to apologise or at least say you were joking .. you do not accuse people of coming out with bnp shite when you know it is not ..

and have you noticed mattkid has also come over to the dark side .. is s/he BNP too???

 

[durruti02]

last point dur, on what to do, 95% we agree. Now Socialist-Worker has always said to me, in such a situation you should fight side-by-side to achieve those 95% of things you agree upon, and make a mutual agreement to "let's see who is right about the 5% in the class struggle". Don't you think that is a reasonable and pragmatic position? Shouldn't we agree to concentrate on, and work together, on the 95% of things we agree about?

i can agree with that in theory and generally in practice .. and clearly at work i work on union stuff with the SW branch sec ..

but i think absolutely that , and increasing numbers of people seem to agree , the SW and all have made a mistake of massive and fundamental importance regarding immigration .. one that is having diasterous consequnces for fighting both capitlaism and facism ( or whatever the bnp are )

and that this mistake is also almost the key to show the general problems of SW ideology .. check out some of Mattkids posts .. very good/interesting ..

 

[exosculate]

some fucking socialist you are .. you do not realise that there is always a half way house to revolution?????!! jesus fucking christ .. you have to start somewhere ... no wonder you leftists are so despised by ordinary people ..

Presumably if we were arguing for a shift nationally from a 37 to 35 hour working week or what have you, Belboid would be saying we should be demanding an 18.5 week and anyone who doesn't agree is a bosses lackey.

What was that theory again about engaging with the working class.............

 

[belboid]

Presumably if we were arguing for a shift nationally from a 37 to 35 hour working week or what have you, Belboid would be saying we should be demanding an 18.5 week and anyone who doesn't agree is a bosses lackey.

What was that theory again about engaging with the working class.............

dont you start being completely fucking stupid as well now. the point is that durrutti's 'solution' is no solution at all, not even a step along the way.

 

[exosculate]

dont you start being completely fucking stupid as well now. the point is that durrutti's 'solution' is no solution at all, not even a step along the way.

Its not stupid - thats how I see your position, an open borders position is in my view is an ultra-leftist position and will never connect with the indiginous working class - to the contrary it will alienate most of them.

 

[belboid]

Try reading that sentence in conjunction with the one you wrote previously tho - and you will see no logical connection between them at all. You posited that connection, so if there isnt one.....

Fine, you think its ultra-left and not widely supported, so good luck with your blairite solutions that you think you may be able to sneak past people. God forbid anyones opinion ever be challenged! And the notino that peoples minds can be changed through argument and experience......

btw - you know Italy didnt have any immigration laws until 1994? Clearly fucked them up didnt it?

 

[exosculate]

Try reading that sentence in conjunction with the one you wrote previously tho - and you will see no logical connection between them at all. You posited that connection, so if there isnt one.....

Fine, you think its ultra-left and not widely supported, so good luck with your blairite solutions that you think you may be able to sneak past people. God forbid anyones opinion ever be challenged! And the notino that peoples minds can be changed through argument and experience......

btw - you know Italy didnt have any immigration laws until 1994? Clearly fucked them up didnt it?

People are not where you would like them to be - you need to engage in reality not in purist nonsense.

 

[TremulousTetra]

"... it sounds familiar, niclas's description of the BNP National Socialist policy, because it is what I have been listening to from you for the last six months isn't it? ... " RMP3#


RMP3 .. so if i am BNP then you must be too

so you agree with 95% of national socialism/BNP??? ( p.s. BNP are no way national socialist but hey whatever .. don't want to spoil your argument)


you still need to apologise or at least say you were joking .. you do not accuse people of coming out with bnp shite when you know it is not ..

and have you noticed mattkid has also come over to the dark side .. is s/he BNP too???

I don't really understand this post. You asked me if I thought you were BNP and I answered, "no!".

Look, I don't know what you know, and what you don't know, so I have no intention of talking down to you, BUT, it is only a couple of years since Nick Griffin declared himself a National Socialist, like Adolf Hitler declared himself a National Socialist. there was a very strong "socialist" element to the Nazi party in Germany, until the night of the long knives.

 

[TremulousTetra]

i can agree with that in theory and generally in practice .. and clearly at work i work on union stuff with the SW branch sec ..

but i think absolutely that , and increasing numbers of people seem to agree , the SW and all have made a mistake of massive and fundamental importance regarding immigration .. one that is having diasterous consequnces for fighting both capitlaism and facism ( or whatever the bnp are )

and that this mistake is also almost the key to show the general problems of SW ideology .. check out some of Mattkids posts .. very good/interesting ..

and many people have totally misunderstood the SW position on immigration. If mat has dawn that as well, I don't know. I will have a look at his posts when I have time, at the moment dealing with your posts is time-consuming enough.

 

[belboid]

People are not where you would like them to be - you need to engage in reality not in purist nonsense.

funnily enough i do - simply proclaiming somethng 'purist nonsense' doesnt actually make it so.

I note you make no attwempt (yet again) to actually respond to the points raised, choosing instead (a la durrutti & baldwin)_ to repeat your one point as if doing so makes it so. It doesnt.


Sorry you have such a low opinion of human beings btw.

 

[exosculate]

funnily enough i do - simply proclaiming somethng 'purist nonsense' doesnt actually make it so.

I note you make no attwempt (yet again) to actually respond to the points raised, choosing instead (a la durrutti & baldwin)_ to repeat your one point as if doing so makes it so. It doesnt.


Sorry you have such a low opinion of human beings btw.

When open borders is clearly not a position held by the vast majority yet you nontheless espouse it - you are whether you like it or not engaging in purist nonsense.

I have a view of where we are at as human beings based on surprisingly the world around me - which is not an oasis of left politics - the fact that you don't like that is something you need to deal with - not me.

What points have you raised beyond that?

 

[belboid]

re-read the thread exo & you'll (probably) see. The fact that alternatives do not work, help divide our class, that keep people in poverty, lead them to brutal nasty deaths, the fact that open borders doesnt mean the 'flooding' that most opponents talk of. And on and on.

 

[PatrickHarringt]

Why move labour when you can move capital? Why bring Indians here to work when you can just move the call centre over there? I think that all populations here are going to end-up in competition with populations overseas. We are all in the same boat and it's sinking!

 

[audiotech]

Why move labour when you can move capital? Why bring Indians here to work when you can just move the call centre over there? I think that all populations here are going to end-up in competition with populations overseas. We are all in the same boat and it's sinking!

Not a good comparison with regards to Indian call centres, as apparently they have been an unmitigated disaster in terms of customer satisfaction and complaints. Absenteeism and labour turnover have reached similar levels to here. The financial institutions who have relocated to India in a way to cut costs and increase profits are now closing these overseas operations down.

 

[exosculate]

Not a good comparison with regards to Indian call centres, as apparently they have been an unmitigated disaster in terms of customer satisfaction and complaints. Absenteeism and labour turnover have reached similar levels to here. The financial institutions who have relocated to India in a way to cut costs and increase profits are now closing these overseas operations down.

I think the key word here is some - in relation to overseas operations closing down.

 

[audiotech]

I think the key word here is some - in relation to overseas operations closing down.

Some is right, but the question is how many will follow?

 

[linerider]

Why move labour when you can move capital? Why bring Indians here to work when you can just move the call centre over there? I think that all populations here are going to end-up in competition with populations overseas. We are all in the same boat and it's sinking!

I don't care what you say YOUR STILL A NAZI CUNT

 

[tbaldwin]

Why move labour when you can move capital? Why bring Indians here to work when you can just move the call centre over there? I think that all populations here are going to end-up in competition with populations overseas. We are all in the same boat and it's sinking!

Good post!

 

[audiotech]

Good post!

The poster pointed out the blindingly obvious, that capitalism involves competition. As for the: "We are all in the same boat and it's sinking!" cliche? Not "all populations" are in the "same boat" "sinking", or otherwise.

 

[tbaldwin]

The poster pointed out the blindingly obvious, that capitalism involves competition. As for the: "We are all in the same boat and it's sinking!" cliche? Not "all populations" are in the "same boat" "sinking", or otherwise.

True....I like the blindingly obvious though....

 

[linerider]

True....I like the blindingly obvious though....

well its blindingly obvious the Harrington is a nazi cunt

 

[JHE]

well its blindingly obvious the Harrington is a nazi cunt

Yes, dear. Harrington just pretends not to be a Nazi. You just pretend not to be a Pol Pottist. Sensible people see through the pair of you.

 

[linerider]

Yes, dear. Harrington just pretends not to be a Nazi. You just pretend not to be a Pol Pottist. Sensible people see through the pair of you.

Tosser

 

[belboid]

Good post!

what a surprise you should say that.

 

[ViolentPanda]

what a surprise you should say that.

Surely you're not implying that Balders might have an unconscious psychological motivation for saying that?

 

[durruti02]

re-read the thread exo & you'll (probably) see. The fact that alternatives do not work, help divide our class, that keep people in poverty, lead them to brutal nasty deaths, the fact that open borders doesnt mean the 'flooding' that most opponents talk of. And on and on.

belboid .. so you are saying that workers control of labour CAN not work?? ..some fking socialist you are!!

nasty brutal deaths?? .. so so liberal!! capitalism always causes death mate

.. the point is to change things .. to rebuild .. open capitalist borders has been involved in ( not as cause but as factor ) in neo liberlaism .. it is incredible that you as so called socialists can not see this

p.s. the posh fella harrington has more idea of socialism than you ..

 

[ViolentPanda]

belboid .. so you are saying that workers control of labour CAN not work?? ..some fking socialist you are!!

nasty brutal deaths?? .. so so liberal!! capitalism always causes death mate

.. the point is to change things .. to rebuild .. open capitalist borders has been involved in ( not as cause but as factor ) in neo liberlaism .. it is incredible that you as so called socialists can not see this

p.s. the posh fella harrington has more idea of socialism than you ..

I've sussed it out, you are actually tbaldwin under another username aren't you?

Same crap spelling, same punctuation, same demented views.

So either you're him, or he's possessed you with his demonic spirit!

 

[belboid]

p.s. the posh fella harrington has more idea of socialism than you ..

well you fuck off and join him then, there's a good idiot.

 

[tbaldwin]

I've sussed it out, you are actually tbaldwin under another username aren't you?

Same crap spelling, same punctuation, same demented views.

So either you're him, or he's possessed you with his demonic spirit!

Tell you what, if you could bottle it you could make a fortune....

 

[durruti02]

well you fuck off and join him then, there's a good idiot.

so sad when facists are more socialist than yourself!! .. you and your party are deeply anti w/c and often misanthropic in your arrogence and contempt against ordinary people ..

i have no interest in joining the third way which like i say is more socialist than yourselves, obsessed with your state capitalist leninist prussian post office order .. the third way are guildists .. way more revolutionary than trotskyism .. sadly they are also racists or racialists and belive as far as i can see in racial seperation