TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
durruti02 said:
John Cruddas MP .. alleges government pushing immigration to undermine unions etc
- Thread starter durruti02
- Start date
RMP3 that really is the last resort of someone who has lost the arguement. The BNP i think are also against people murdering children...,so does it follow that anybody who says they are against murdering children can be tarred as a fellow traveller of the BNP?
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
if you were a migrant worker, would you join a trade union which organised to force employers not to employ migrant workers?durruti02 said:
ResistanceMP3 said:
please answer my q. and stop throwing smears out
and just to keep you happy .. yes i would .. clearly they are a union that fights for its members .. and i was impressed by their leaflet in polish/etc etc aimed at the first intake of workers last year ..
you can attempt to smear as much as you like .. my record in my life and what i have written and my conscionce are clear
BUT i am unimportant ..
it is i have continually written , not me you need to try to persuade otherwise ... it is the hundreds of thousends of people who are voting bnp and the whole w/c that is drifting to the right
and who are profoundly unimpressed by your argument that there is no material issue just an ideologiocal war being waged .. you are fiddling while rome burns
BUT i am unimportant ..
it is i have continually written , not me you need to try to persuade otherwise ... it is the hundreds of thousends of people who are voting bnp and the whole w/c that is drifting to the right
and who are profoundly unimpressed by your argument that there is no material issue just an ideologiocal war being waged .. you are fiddling while rome burns
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
well clearly not a union which fights for all of its members, if it was trade union which organised to force employers not to employ migrant workers, you!durruti02 said:
you may join such a union, but what about your average working class migrant? Do you think they would?
Oh yes, I do have kids, and I live in a particularly poor area of my city. Okay?
ResistanceMP3 said:
i really think you have NO conception of trade unions and how to organise at work .. you think a unions should actively encourage cheap labour from abroad ( or wherever ) rather than employ local people on good money???
thank fuck you are not my steward .. p.s. i am a steward .. we have the best paid of our job in the country and some of the most political workers in organisation in my section .. talk to the local swp branch sec if you want ..
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
what about your average working class migrant? Do you think they would join a trade union that campaign to stop employers employing migrant workers?durruti02 said:
on my children, no I would not see them in that situation gladly. I would encourage them to do all the things we agree on, building union, fighting' the bosses, etc, and most importantly of all, building unity not division. That is my honest opinion.
And in no way have I tried to smear you. if you feel uncomfortable about the similarity between your local jobs for local people, and the fascist British jobs for British people, that is not my fault.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
where have I said I think that trade unions should actively encouraged cheap labour from abroad?durruti02 said:i really think you have NO conception of trade unions and how to organise at work .. you think a unions should actively encourage cheap labour from abroad ( or wherever ) rather than employ local people on good money???
last point dur, on what to do, 95% we agree. Now Socialist-Worker has always said to me, in such a situation you should fight side-by-side to achieve those 95% of things you agree upon, and make a mutual agreement to "let's see who is right about the 5% in the class struggle". Don't you think that is a reasonable and pragmatic position? Shouldn't we agree to concentrate on, and work together, on the 95% of things we agree about?
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
tbaldwin said:
baldy, putting words in somebody's mouth really is the last resort of someone who has lost the argument.
by the way, your argument is different from durs, and far closer to the BNP. At least dur is making a determined effort to eke out what he sees as a workers solution. I disagree with him about his strategy, but at least he's not going to go cap in hand to the bosses beging them to enforce stronger borders to protect workers. Like that is ever going to happen. Your strategy is completely bankrupt in my opinion.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
yes but you can see where he is coming from. He plainly has to deal with these arguments with his fellow workers every day. You would not condemn workers for wanting to protect themselves, but you would argue with them that the trade union organising to stop employers from employing immigrants is not a solution. You have to recognise that we agree with 95% of what are you saying, in analysis and solutions. God, SW must have disagreed with a far bigger percentage of analysis and solutions with Labour Party members in the 80s when we said "VoteLabour, But Build the Socialist Alternative". The only reason for such accommodation, is the recognition that without people like dur and the Labour Party, there can be no revolution.belboid said:
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
T&G claims shop steward suspended for speaking out against the abuse of agency workers at Tesco distribution site
The Transport and General Workers Union today said they believed one of the union’s shop stewards employed by the Agency ‘Driving Edge’ at a Tesco distribution centre run by Wincanton in Middleton, North Manchester, Adam Gietkowski, has been suspended for speaking out against the abuse and exploitation of agency workers on the site.
The agency workers, mainly Polish and Lithuanian, are permanent workers at the site. They work alongside the direct workforce, employed by Wincanton, doing identical jobs but, said the T&G, are on poorer pay and conditions. The T&G is currently taking Driving Edge to an employment tribunal for race discrimination. The union said they have been told of a number of other incidents which amount to abuse of the workers:
* Polish workers in agency accommodation are charged more the more hours they work.
* Managers enter the accommodation without permission of the tenants – on a number of occasions Adam was woken by managers whilst he was sleeping during the day following night shifts.
* Workers have been told they were dismissed without explanation or hearing
* A women worker was suspended without pay after she informed Driving Edge that she was pregnant
* During the Christmas period workers were told they had to be available to work so they could not go home to see there families. A number of them were then laid of for a week without pay.
* Unexplained deductions from their wages
* Workers charged for PPE and uniform which is provided free to Wincanton workers
Mick Cashman, Senior Organiser for the T&G, said:
“The T&G are determined to end the abuse of Driving Edge workers at this site. The direct workforce wants an end to two-tier pay undermining their pay and conditions. We believe Wincanton and Tesco have a responsibility to all of these workers.”
sounds a decent way to go to me, presumably dur thinks the 'local' workers should actually be fighting to have them kicked out
The Transport and General Workers Union today said they believed one of the union’s shop stewards employed by the Agency ‘Driving Edge’ at a Tesco distribution centre run by Wincanton in Middleton, North Manchester, Adam Gietkowski, has been suspended for speaking out against the abuse and exploitation of agency workers on the site.
The agency workers, mainly Polish and Lithuanian, are permanent workers at the site. They work alongside the direct workforce, employed by Wincanton, doing identical jobs but, said the T&G, are on poorer pay and conditions. The T&G is currently taking Driving Edge to an employment tribunal for race discrimination. The union said they have been told of a number of other incidents which amount to abuse of the workers:
* Polish workers in agency accommodation are charged more the more hours they work.
* Managers enter the accommodation without permission of the tenants – on a number of occasions Adam was woken by managers whilst he was sleeping during the day following night shifts.
* Workers have been told they were dismissed without explanation or hearing
* A women worker was suspended without pay after she informed Driving Edge that she was pregnant
* During the Christmas period workers were told they had to be available to work so they could not go home to see there families. A number of them were then laid of for a week without pay.
* Unexplained deductions from their wages
* Workers charged for PPE and uniform which is provided free to Wincanton workers
Mick Cashman, Senior Organiser for the T&G, said:
“The T&G are determined to end the abuse of Driving Edge workers at this site. The direct workforce wants an end to two-tier pay undermining their pay and conditions. We believe Wincanton and Tesco have a responsibility to all of these workers.”
sounds a decent way to go to me, presumably dur thinks the 'local' workers should actually be fighting to have them kicked out
belboid said:
This is telling us what we already know. British and Irish workers who used to go to Holland to work for agencies during the nineties suffered similar exploitation. order pickers etc were treated like dirt.Support for this type of immigration generally comes from free marketeers to whom it is a euphemism for low pay and poor conditions. Factories and building sites in Holland used to be downright dangerous.We used to live in chalets -sleeping in bunk. Lads used to come in bleached white from chemicals. Not a happy era at all.
belboid .. please use your brain
NO ONE IS CALLING FOR A RACIST OR OTHERWISE EXCLUSION OF FOREIGNERS
WHAT IS BEING CALLED FOR IS WORKERS AND /OR COMMUNITY CONTROL ..
WHERE LOCAL PEOPLE DICTATE TO THE BOSSES WHO IS EMPLOYED ..
FOR I.E. POSITIVE DISCRIMINATION FOR LOCAL PEOPLE
SO LOCAL KIDS GET JOBS BEFORE CHEAP LABOUR FROM ABROAD
SO WE TRAIN UP TEACHERS AND NURSES RATHER THAN TAKING THEM FROM WHERE THEY ARE DESPERATELY NEEDED IN THE THIRD WORLD
SO WE CAN START TO GET BACK STABLE COMMUNITIES .
SO WE CAN START TO GET THE 3 MILLION UNEMPLOYED BACK TO WORK
SO OUR KIDS HAVE HOPES LIKE MY GENERATION HAD AND MY KIDS GENERATION DOES NOT
SO OUR UNIONS ARE SEEN TO BE FIGHTING FOR PEOPLE
SO OUR KIDS CAN GET SOMEWHERE TO LIVE
IMMIGRATION IN 2006 IS ABOUT NOTHING BUT SCUMMY FUCKING CAPITALISM ... ABOUT BREAKING UNIONS ABOUT MAKING HIGHER PROFITS
WE WILL NOT DESTROY CAPITALISM BY TELLING WORKING CLASS PEOPLE TO ACCEPT BEING SCREWED .. IN FACT THE OPPOSITE .. THE W/C ARE DRIFTING RAPIDLY TO THE FAR RIGHT
FACE FACTS .. WE ALL AND THE LEFT HAVE BEEN SCREWED BY THE BOSSES AND LIBERALS ON THIS ISSUE ..
NO ONE IS CALLING FOR A RACIST OR OTHERWISE EXCLUSION OF FOREIGNERS
WHAT IS BEING CALLED FOR IS WORKERS AND /OR COMMUNITY CONTROL ..
WHERE LOCAL PEOPLE DICTATE TO THE BOSSES WHO IS EMPLOYED ..
FOR I.E. POSITIVE DISCRIMINATION FOR LOCAL PEOPLE
SO LOCAL KIDS GET JOBS BEFORE CHEAP LABOUR FROM ABROAD
SO WE TRAIN UP TEACHERS AND NURSES RATHER THAN TAKING THEM FROM WHERE THEY ARE DESPERATELY NEEDED IN THE THIRD WORLD
SO WE CAN START TO GET BACK STABLE COMMUNITIES .
SO WE CAN START TO GET THE 3 MILLION UNEMPLOYED BACK TO WORK
SO OUR KIDS HAVE HOPES LIKE MY GENERATION HAD AND MY KIDS GENERATION DOES NOT
SO OUR UNIONS ARE SEEN TO BE FIGHTING FOR PEOPLE
SO OUR KIDS CAN GET SOMEWHERE TO LIVE
IMMIGRATION IN 2006 IS ABOUT NOTHING BUT SCUMMY FUCKING CAPITALISM ... ABOUT BREAKING UNIONS ABOUT MAKING HIGHER PROFITS
WE WILL NOT DESTROY CAPITALISM BY TELLING WORKING CLASS PEOPLE TO ACCEPT BEING SCREWED .. IN FACT THE OPPOSITE .. THE W/C ARE DRIFTING RAPIDLY TO THE FAR RIGHT
FACE FACTS .. WE ALL AND THE LEFT HAVE BEEN SCREWED BY THE BOSSES AND LIBERALS ON THIS ISSUE ..
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
fuck this. You're just talking bollocks now durrutti - hence your need for CAPITAL LETTERS and wacky fonts.
Like balders, you're simply repeating your schema and by endless repetition hoping for eventual compliance. But you've actually offerred nothing new or practicable. Its a pipe dream, if we could get to a state of affairs where your solution could be implemented we could implement a damn site better one, so your half-way house is pointless, and, as your no doubt aware, half a revolution is no revolution at all.
Your normally better than this, I can only put it down to feeling a need to dfend the idiot baldwin - who is now off with 'interesting' Pat Harrington of course....
btw - I haven't accused anyone of being racist, so stop making things up
Like balders, you're simply repeating your schema and by endless repetition hoping for eventual compliance. But you've actually offerred nothing new or practicable. Its a pipe dream, if we could get to a state of affairs where your solution could be implemented we could implement a damn site better one, so your half-way house is pointless, and, as your no doubt aware, half a revolution is no revolution at all.
Your normally better than this, I can only put it down to feeling a need to dfend the idiot baldwin - who is now off with 'interesting' Pat Harrington of course....
btw - I haven't accused anyone of being racist, so stop making things up
belboid said:
read the posts!
( p.s. so the SW supports polish workers against 'british ' workers .. teh bnp will love that )
IT IS NOT ABOUT SUPPORTTING ONE GROUP AGAINIST ANOTHER .. IT IS ABOUT STARTING FROM SQUARE ONE AND BUILDING UNIONS THAT FIGHT FOR WORKERS .. NOT TO HELP THE BOSSES IMPORT WORKERS ON LESS MONEY TO TAKE THEIR JOBS ..
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