Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[smokedout]

and a bullet in the head.

its better than blowing up a tube train

 

[discokermit]

its better than blowing up a tube train

go for it then.

 

[smokedout]

go for it then.

cant, george galloway's in the fucking way

 

[Spion]

Question:

It's not entirely clear from your post but was it your impression that the largest bloc on the march were chanting death to Israel?

Answer:

at one pont, although in fairness not all of them and it didnt last as long as the rest

So, 'the largest bloc' on the march were chanting 'death to israel', but not all of the largest bloc and not for very long?

How many people were chanting it and for how long?

 

[Spion]

there were more than a few occasions where the helicopters were flying very low and i half imagined them landing in the middle of the demo and starting to shoot at everyone

You need to rein that imagination in, Froggy

 

[Diamond]

Question:

Answer:

So, 'the largest bloc' on the march were chanting 'death to israel', but not all of the largest bloc and not for very long?

How many people were chanting it and for how long?

I don't see how duration is a factor.

 

[Spion]

it calls for palestine to be free, not palestinians, and for palaestine to extend from the river jordan to the meditarranean, ie where israel is now

A free Palestine is a better aspiration than an existing racist state. I don't know why you hate the idea so

 

[Spion]

I don't see how duration is a factor.

I'm trying to gain a picture of what happened, from Smokedout's point of view, and how that tallies with that of others who were there

 

[Diamond]

I'm trying to gain a picture of what happened, from Smokedout's point of view, and how that tallies with that of others who were there

gotcha

 

[Spion]

.

 

[frogwoman]

You need to rein that imagination in, Froggy

aye - dont wanna give em ideas

 

[frogwoman]

I don't see how duration is a factor.

It is because if it's of short duration it's probably because people around are telling them to pack it in.

 

[ymu]

it calls for palestine to be free, not palestinians, and for palaestine to extend from the river jordan to the meditarranean, ie where israel is now

given that it was being chanted by the same group chanted death to israel at one point (and it was far mopre than just a handful, but probably the largest bloc on the march) then id guess they knew exactly what they meant

that didnt stop the trot left and assorted peaceniks who got caught up with them singing along though

A Jewish Israeli friend of mine is married to a Palestinian. They cannot live together in Israel. He cannot go with her and their daughter to see the grandparents in Israel.

This is what the slogan is about - freedom of movement and an equal right to live and work in the whole of historic Palestine. Most Palestinians favour a one state solution, but know pragmatically that only a two state solution is on the table and most will support this, including Hamas, if it is the best offer on the table. But whilst Palestine would vote for a single secular democratic state, Israelis tend to see the one state solution as meaning genocide, one way or the other and the idea has only recently started to gain ground there.

 

[smokedout]

But whilst Palestine would vote for a single secular democratic state, Israelis tend to see the one state solution as meaning genocide, one way or the other and the idea has only recently started to gain ground there.

and the phrase palestine will be free, from the river to the sea, you really don't see how that could encourage such a fear?

spion,what i saw was a more dominant and virulant and more importantly organised anti-israeili (not israel) and possibly hamas supporting faction than i have seen before

and that, as a supporter of the aims of the march, there was a short period where i felt ashamed to be where i was, it was fucking horrible in fact

 

[frogwoman]

^^ this. I have little problem with the "river to the sea" slogan tbh, and it's quite ironic to see supposed anti-zionists raising it as something "objectionable".


eta: just seen your post smokedout, aye good point about encouraging the fear, although it's hardly the only one to do so - and there did seem to be a few more twats on the demo than there usually was, like that cunt kicking off at the hamburger stall. i hope they arrested some of them. im glad i didn't see that shit ...

 

[smokedout]

^^ this. I have little problem with the "river to the sea" slogan tbh, and it's quite ironic to see supposed anti-zionists raising it as something "objectionable".
(

how about israel will be free, from the river to the sea?

 

[frogwoman]

this might get me some flak on here but i don't agree with the two state solution as i don't think it's practical in the long term, and i thought the slogan was about the one state solution.

it's a bit politically naive and I see the point about various connotations it could have but honestly? it definitely doesn't have the same connotations as people cheering for hamas and shouting "shame on you" at the army and other islamist bollocks.

 

[frogwoman]

how about israel will be free, from the river to the sea?

yep right,i see what you mean, but i don't think it's what it's intended to be. it could be taken that way by israelis and others under the circumstances though ...

 

[frogwoman]

fwiw i tihnk you're probably right about a larger proportion of pro-hamas supporters on the demo than in previous years, and i think in part this has something to do with the political situation of britain , the polarisation that is taking place between some sections of the muslim community and others in the uk - not to excuse it, but to me its an extra reason to keep going to things like this to show that not everyone who agrees with this stuff is like this ...

 

[smokedout]

it's a bit politically naive and I see the point about various connotations it could have but honestly? it definitely doesn't have the same connotations as people cheering for hamas and shouting "shame on you" at the army and other islamist bollocks.

but the same people doing that were also the ones leading the from the river etc chant, which is considered anti-semitic by a lot of people probably because its easily perceived as a chant calling for the end to israel

thats slightly different from a call for a one state, secular solution

i agree most of the people chanting it were politically naive, i dont believe the ones who started it were though

 

[smokedout]

not to excuse it, but to me its an extra reason to keep going to things like this to show that not everyone who agrees with this stuff is like this ...

sorry missed your posts

i'm not sure it is enough just to keep going, im not really sure what impact it makes anyway, im not sure apathy helps much either, but thats how saturday left me feeling

i felt a bit shit and dirty because i didnt confront it, in my defence, sober and alone as i was i didnt fancy taking on what seemed a pretty strong posse

what concerned me most is that most of the more seemingly 'moderate' people around didnt even seem to notice

 

[frogwoman]

take your point mate. i have no idea how much impact demos make, probably very little to be honest what i mean is it isn't a reason not to stop doing things for palestinian activism etc, (or any other kind) , just because people like this are wishing to highjack it. Its tough tho innit

 

[laptop]

I'd assumed that "river to the sea" slogan was the Social Workers... naff enough rhyme/scansion...

I've been poking around. The great majority of references to it appear to be outraged Zionists.

Like this member of Avigdor Lieberman's right wing Yisrael Beiteinu party.

Logically, of course, the answer is: "you have a problem with being free?" Logic, however...

 

[Weller]

yeah ok, I'd not seen that footage, the first I saw was the IDF released stuff.

I guess some did manage to get their footage out themselves one way or another.

Wasnt there some live footage on the morning just before they jammed it , Im sure I saw them boarding and hearing guns live , has it not surfaced , I think I was watching Aljazeera was this it ?

 

[danny la rouge]

this might get me some flak on here but i don't agree with the two state solution as i don't think it's practical in the long term, and i thought the slogan was about the one state solution.

A Jewish Israeli friend of mine is married to a Palestinian. They cannot live together in Israel. He cannot go with her and their daughter to see the grandparents in Israel.

This is what the slogan is about - freedom of movement and an equal right to live and work in the whole of historic Palestine. Most Palestinians favour a one state solution, but know pragmatically that only a two state solution is on the table and most will support this, including Hamas, if it is the best offer on the table. But whilst Palestine would vote for a single secular democratic state, Israelis tend to see the one state solution as meaning genocide, one way or the other and the idea has only recently started to gain ground there.

and the phrase palestine will be free, from the river to the sea, you really don't see how that could encourage such a fear?

As an ideal, obviously a one state outcome would be preferable. However, it has long been my belief - and it is indeed the belief of the "international community", ie the political elites - that the two state solution is much more achievable. In pragmatic terms, I'd rather see a swift, unsatisfactory outcome, than condemn the Palestinians (and, yes, the Israelis) to decades more of the current situation, for the sake of holding out for a more "ideologically pure", but unachievable goal. This view was reinforced whenever I have spoken to Palestinians about it.

However, a glance at a map shows you immediate problems with the two state solution: the West Bank and Gaza are isolated from each other. So, for a two state solution to work (for Palestinians to have freedom of movement "from the River to the Sea") you'd need a vastly changed mindset in Israel. This has more recently caused me to question the two state solution: if such fundamental mindset changing is required in Israel (or, in the Israeli political elite) for the two state solution to work, why settle for second best? Why not go for a secular, democratic unitary state, in which Palestinians and Israelis feel equally empowered?

I haven't settled on supporting the unitary state option as the only goal worth supporting. But I do think working on the Israeli mindset is the only way any change will come.

 

[Spion]

how about israel will be free, from the river to the sea?

a) Israel is free
b) Israel is specifically jewish as an idea
c) Palestine is not restricted to one ethnic group. There are and have historically been muslim, christian and jewish Palestinians

 

[ViolentPanda]

nobody is going to storm the embassy. what do you think you would get as soon as you got in?

A copper-jacketed lead sandwich.

 

[Diamond]

A little insight into Israeli opinion on the matter (likely to raise your blood pressure):

 

[dylans]

A little insight into Israeli opinion on the matter (likely to raise your blood pressure):

So now you are reduced to simply posting unadulterated Israeli propaganda on the site. Have a look around, maybe you can tell us about the luxury swimming pools etc.

 

[Spymaster]

A Jewish Israeli friend of mine is married to a Palestinian. They cannot live together in Israel. He cannot go with her and their daughter to see the grandparents in Israel.

Why not?