Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[Diamond]

You wrote "you found it a bit difficult to equate the voortrekkers to the jews".

Well, yes.

The Voortrekkers prefigured the various states of South Africa and the history of the Jews prefigured the creation of Israel.

That's what I was getting at.

 

[frogwoman]

Well that leaves me out then because I don't believe in a Jewish state (or any state based on religion tbh) I believe everyone born in that land has a right to live there in peace. I believe in an inclusive democratic state for all its citizens. I am against a Jewish state just as I am against Pakistan existing as a specifically Islamic state. When those states included citizens who are excluded by religion or ethnicity then those states cannot be democratic.

I am against the right to return while it is applied to any Jew in the world soley on the basis of religion while it specifically excludes those from the Palestinian diaspora.

It's not even about religion. When neo-Nazis with one Jewish great-grandparent are arriving in Israel for economic reasons, when Peruvian tribes are being converted to Judaism and brought to Israel, something is really fucking wrong.

 

[Diamond]

The thing is that Israel as a concept doesn't hold that much weight if it isn't based on some kind of Jewish identity.

If it's a completely plural secular society then surely it is just Palestine?

 

[butchersapron]

Well, yes.

The Voortrekkers prefigured the various states of South Africa and the history of the Jews prefigured the creation of Israel.

That's what I was getting at.

Prefigured.

See if you can carefully work out the difference between a constitution/state structures and people subject to those.

 

[tangentlama]

Most states don't have ethnicity or religion as a requirement for being allowed to immigrate to the country. There is something a bit wrong when I, an anti-Zionist Jew whose ancestors who have not lived in the country for 2000 years, have the "right of return" to go to Israel and a Palestinian does not, despite the fact that they were kicked off their land 50 years ago and still have the keys and title deeds to their house.

I don't think you have the right to return because the Israeli state and it's rabbis won't recognise you as a Jew because you converted to reform Judaism and because it's your father who is Jewish. They won't recognise either your conversion to Judaism or your Jewish ethnicity, thus, its very possible you won't be recognised as a Jew as far as Israeli right of return is concerned.

 

[frogwoman]

Well, yes.

The Voortrekkers prefigured the various states of South Africa and the history of the Jews prefigured the creation of Israel.

That's what I was getting at.

What about who the Afrikaners were before they went to South Africa, and why they went there? Do you think that they just went there for the hell of it?

 

[butchersapron]

...the history of the Jews prefigured the creation of Israel.

Remember what i said about description versus analysis?

 

[frogwoman]

I'd guess if a nazi with jewish great-grandparents can go to Israel then so could I tbh.

 

[Belushi]

I don't think you have the right to return because the Israeli state and it's rabbis won't recognise you as a Jew because you converted to reform Judaism and because it's your father who is Jewish. They won't recognise either your conversion to Judaism or your Jewish ethnicity, thus, its very possible you won't be recognised as a Jew as far as Israeli right of return is concerned.

Thats lucky for them 'cos she's a troublemaker

 

[frogwoman]

I don't think you have the right to return because the Israeli state and it's rabbis won't recognise you as a Jew because you converted to reform Judaism and because it's your father who is Jewish. They won't recognise either your conversion to Judaism or your Jewish ethnicity, thus, its very possible you won't be recognised as a Jew as far as Israeli right of return is concerned.

I heard that they changed the law to give people in my situation the right to return, which is hilarious tbh as half my ancestors aren't even Jewish.

 

[Diamond]

What about who the Afrikaners were before they went to South Africa, and why they went there? Do you think that they just went there for the hell of it?

That's a good point but I don't think it's really relevant to the side-argument as to when it's justifiable to use the term Jew as opposed to Zionist.

 

[dylans]

Ok, so it seems that most people here have trouble with the founding premise of Israel.

It should never have happened. It was a disaster of historic proportions. It was the Nakba, the great catastrophe for Palestinians. To this day, four and a half million people are dispersed around the world as a result of this tragedy. it was nothing less than ethnic cleansing and it continues to this day.

A people totally innocent of the holocaust were driven from their land and made to pay for a European problem that was nothing to do with them.

If Zionists wanted a nation they should have been given Austria, at least that would have some ironic justice to it (only half joking)

But it was born and it exists and every person born there has a right to live there in peace and justice. That means Palestinians too.

 

[frogwoman]

Do you know who the Afrikaners were before they went to South Africa? Please read some books ...

 

[Diamond]

It should never have happened. It was a disaster of historic proportions. It was the Nakba, the great catastrophe for Palestinians. To this day, four and a half million people are dispersed around the world as a result of this tragedy. it was nothing less than ethnic cleansing and it continues to this day.

A people totally innocent of the holocaust were driven from their land and made to pay for a European problem that was nothing to do with them.

If Zionists wanted a nation they should have been given Austria, at least that would have some ironic justice to it (only half joking)

But it was born and it exists and every person born there has a right to live there in peace and justice. That means Palestinians too.

So having said that, you have no trouble with Israel as Israel?

As opposed to a broader Palestinian state?

 

[frogwoman]

That's a good point but I don't think it's really relevant to the side-argument as to when it's justifiable to use the term Jew as opposed to Zionist.

Voortrekkers aren't the same as afrikaners. Zionists aren't the same as jews.

 

[Diamond]

Do you know who the Afrikaners were before they went to South Africa? Please read some books ...

I still don't see why that's relevant to the Jew/Zionist argument.

 

[dylans]

That's a good point but I don't think it's really relevant to the side-argument as to when it's justifiable to use the term Jew as opposed to Zionist.

Well that's it isn't it. I can convert to Judaism. I can become a Jew. I then have the right to be an Israeli citizen and I can then get a big gun and go to Hebron and shoot Arabs like in a cowboy and Indian movie

 

[frogwoman]

So having said that, you have no trouble with Israel as Israel?

As opposed to a broader Palestinian state?

Who gives a shit what it's called? i suspect that dylans is in favour of the same thing i am, ie one secular, democratic state.

 

[Diamond]

Voortrekkers aren't the same as afrikaners. Zionists aren't the same as jews.

But they both rely on a founding narrative that employs the mythology of those ethnicities.

That's why it's valid and necessary to use those terms.

 

[butchersapron]

But they both rely on a founding narrative that employs the mythology of those ethnicities.

That's why it's valid and necessary to use those terms.

So despite not seeing any similarities these are the similarities you see. Nice one.

 

[ymu]

I don't think you have the right to return because the Israeli state and it's rabbis won't recognise you as a Jew because you converted to reform Judaism and because it's your father who is Jewish. They won't recognise either your conversion to Judaism or your Jewish ethnicity, thus, its very possible you won't be recognised as a Jew as far as Israeli right of return is concerned.

They use Hitler's definition of a Jew for the right to return though, don't they? Jewish blood within three generations.

 

[frogwoman]

I still don't see why that's relevant to the Jew/Zionist argument.

It is relevant. You are describing the history of the Jews and giving that as a reason for for Israel's "founding principle".


The ancestors of Afrikaners were Hugeneots in Holland and France who were being killed and massacred in those countries for religious heresy in a similar way to what the churches did to the Jews. They escaped to South Africa and quite a number of them came to believe that it is the "promised land".

That is partly why groups who appear to be like the Christian Identity Church became popular in South Africa, very suspicious of "race-mixing" and very anti-semitic.

That is how it is relevant.

 

[Diamond]

So despite not seeing any similarities these are the similarities you see. Nice one.

The fact that a state relies on some ethno-linguistic founding narrative is far from remarkable.

In fact, it'd be pretty odd if it didn't.

 

[butchersapron]

The fact that a state relies on some ethno-linguistic founding narrative is far from remarkable.

In fact, it'd be pretty odd if it didn't.

Why are you equating jews with racist south africans?

 

[Diamond]

It is relevant. You are describing the history of the Jews and giving that as a reason for for Israel's "founding principle".


The ancestors of Afrikaners were Hugeneots in Holland and France who were being killed and massacred in those countries for religious heresy in a similar way to what the churches did to the Jews. They escaped to South Africa and quite a number of them came to believe that it is the "promised land".

That is partly why groups who appear to be like the Christian Identity Church became popular in South Africa, very suspicious of "race-mixing" and very anti-semitic.

That is how it is relevant.

That's interesting but it's not really on point.

 

[butchersapron]

It's entirely 'on point' - you just don't see it.

 

[Spion]

The fact that a state relies on some ethno-linguistic founding narrative is far from remarkable.

In fact, it'd be pretty odd if it didn't.

A 'founding narrative' is one thing. Inbuilt discrimination is quite another. Learn the difference

 

[dylans]

So having said that, you have no trouble with Israel as Israel?

As opposed to a broader Palestinian state?

Call it what you like. I would like to see a democratic secular state for all of it's citizens regardless of religion or ethnicity.

Personally i am against a two state solution though I know some here will disagree with that.. I think the West Bank and Gaza can not be a viable independent state. Sadly I think it may be the best the Palestinians can hope for unfortunately.

I will say this however, the contradiction between Israel as a religiously based state and Israel as a secular state will increase with peace and one day they will have to choose between the two. A religious state cannot be a democratic state when it includes within its borders those not included by nature of religion.

Religion is not nation. Religious identity is not enough to forge national identity. That is the problem facing Pakistan and one also facing Israel.

 

[Diamond]

Why are you equating jews with racist south africans?

You know what, I'm not just equating jews with racist south africans, I'm equating them with WASPs, Deutsch, the Nipponese and just about everyone else.

 

[butchersapron]

You know what, I'm not just equating jews with racist south africans, I'm equating them with WASPs, Deutsch, the Nipponese and just about everyone else.

Right, now extend your logic to my post. The one about The South African Constitution.