frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
No problems with religious t-shirts. But the islamist twats always seem to be wearing *that* t-shirt.
Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.
- Thread starter danny la rouge
- Start date
No problems with religious t-shirts. But the islamist twats always seem to be wearing *that* t-shirt.
Exactly.I'm not sure exactly.
But it seems that there's a need for a more highly articulated idea of what the demo is about.
If you have a broad-brush anti-Israeli sentiment then that provides for a big tent into which there might be ushered some very unpleasant people indeed.
Say you start off with the premise that the State of Israel has a right to exist within it's own borders and then go from there.
It would seem to me that if you take that as a starting point you manage to exclude some of the more rancid anti-semitic zealots.
Let me clarify - I don't think that the evidence carries that specific Zionist argument but at least part of it is made out.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
The demo was about the flotilla attack.
And what is a "right to exist" in this context, anyway? When it comes to Israel it means something very different to what it appears to. If you say that you don't support "israel's right to exist" you sound like a twat, but "Israel's right to exist" means "Israel's right to exist AS A JEWISH STATE".
What are Israel's own borders, anyway? Israel has never defined its borders.
I was arguing for it as the commonly read 1967 borders.
And as for right to exist, I think it would probably have to involve recognition, to some degree, of Israel's right to exist as a jewish state.
That would seem to be the purpose of the place.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Always a risk with these demos.
A broad brush left wing demo also provides for a space for very unpleasant people to turn up. I remember I was on an Iraq war demo and someone handed me a leaflet about all the lies told about North Korea.
You also get Serbian nationalists and the like on some of the anti-war demos, I've seen some. Very unpleasant people who hate Muslims but hate America even more, and think that Srebrenica and the like was a lie. Wnhat are you going to do about these people, start making a list of all the wars that can be protested about on the demo?
And Im sorry but if a demo in favour of Palestine starts from the premise that Israel has "a right to exist," that defeats the object of what you're trying to do.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
A pro-Israel demo then.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Thing is the right to exist as a jewish state means that you are supporting things like unequal rights for jews and palestinians, and the idea that it is a state for jews and jews get preferential treatment in everything.
It doesn't necessarily mean that.
Most people would accept that the purpose of Britain is to provide a homeland for the British people, yet there are plenty of people of other stripes who manage to live full and happy lives within our borders.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
I would be amazed if one out of a hundred people gave that response, never mind "most".
Spion
I hear ya
But that doesn't happen in Israel. If you're arab inside the 67 borders you are discriminated against in housing and jobs. If you are arab in the post 67 borders you also have the likelihood you are having your land stolen, can't travel freely etc
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Since when was "British" a religion?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I'm not talking about what it means in Britain. In Israel it has a different and very specific meaning.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I had trouble with the South African Constitution too.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Most states don't have ethnicity or religion as a requirement for being allowed to immigrate to the country. There is something a bit wrong when I, an anti-Zionist Jew whose ancestors who have not lived in the country for 2000 years, have the "right of return" to go to Israel and a Palestinian does not, despite the fact that they were kicked off their land 50 years ago and still have the keys and title deeds to their house.
I find it difficult to equate the Voortrekkers with the Jews.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Don't then. I didn't.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Well that leaves me out then because I don't believe in a Jewish state (or any state based on religion tbh) I believe everyone born in that land has a right to live there in peace. I believe in an inclusive democratic state for all its citizens. I am against a Jewish state just as I am against Pakistan existing as a specifically Islamic state. When those states included citizens who are excluded by religion or ethnicity then those states cannot be democratic.
I am against the right to return while it is applied to any Jew in the world soley on the basis of religion while it specifically excludes those from the Palestinian diaspora.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yeah, the stuff i wrote that didn't say what you said.
Sorry, but I've used both terms carefully and where I intended to.
I recognise that there is a valuable difference too.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
You wrote "you found it a bit difficult to equate the voortrekkers to the jews".
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
Depends. For the Israeli peacenik, Israel must be a state for all its citizens, regardless of faith or ethnicity, and they work towards making this a reality. To the Israeli dybbuknik, it means a state only for Jews, and they work towards making this a reality.
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