Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[ViolentPanda]

Elohim gadol!

I've always preferred "kill 'em all, let G-d sort them out" as a battle-cry, myself.

 

[dylans]

which billion people?

if you mean the billion or so Muslims of one sort or another, I think you're barking up the wrong tree if you think that preventing them from chanting 'God is Great' on demonstrations is going to in any way win their hearts and minds.

I thought the discussion had moved on from that. I was talking about Annes tendency to claim as universal or representative of Islam as a whole themes which most definitely are not universal, such as the presentation of images etc.

And as for the prohibition against depictions of prophets and for that matter other people or animals, that's not extremist either, so far as I'm aware, that one's actually universal, painting or sculptures of animals or people are haram.

Does Ann still stand by that statement?

If so please find me a single quote from the Koran forbidding the production of images. Also explain to me the long tradition of painting and sculpting images, within the Shia community. (and within Sunni traditions too)I have been in Iran and the country is awash with images of Imams and martyrs etc. They even place an image of the deceased on their tombstone. Also explain the historical examples in Ottoman art of images of prophets and even of Mohammed.

Here are some examples

Here is another

so when someone tells me that images are "harem" I think I can reasonably argue that this argument is an example of puritanical trends within Islam and not as you claim "universal" at all.

What is forbidden is the worship of images, something shared by all Abrahamic religions

 

[free spirit]

you do actually realise that you're talking to two different posters in that post don't you?

 

[dylans]

you do actually realise that you're talking to two different posters in that post don't you?

embarrassed...oops. No.....Damn it was a fucking good post too. Oh well, did you like the pics of Mohammed?


I will see if I can do a fancy edit to hide my shame.

(done but I have to put my hands up and say I fucked that up sorry)

 

[free spirit]

embarrassed...oops. No.....Damn it was a fucking good post too. Oh well, did you like the pics of Mohammed?


I will see if I can do a fancy edit to hide my shame.

lol - yeah nice pics, and tbf it wasn't actually you who'd originally posted up about wanting people chanting "Allahu Akbar" to get kicked off demos, your arguement appears to be much more nuanced and thought out from what I can tell after rereading your posts.

so that makes two of us getting mixed up

 

[Open Sauce]

Some music acts are beginning to boycott

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/pixies-cancel-israel-concert-1.294451

Plus some protest songs..

 

[butchersapron]

Who played Sun City

 

[Open Sauce]

Plus some protest songs..

How many online sales gets to number one these days?

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

F*** lost a post due to time out... Here it is again, I think, fingers crossed.

It wasn't my intention to misrepresent you and if I gave that impression i apologise

Thank you, apology accepted.

Yes and I asked you which Muslims, It seems to me to be a reasonable assumption on a political demonstration particularly around an issue that is increasingly being seen in religious (as opposed to national or ethnic terms) that religious slogans, like all slogans on a demonstration, should be seen as political. I say now I remain unconvinced by what I think is a tendency in your posts to strip them of their political character.

You might think it's a reasonable assumption that religious slogans *should* be seen as political, on a political demonstration, but it doesn't make it true. Btw, saying "should" makes it more of an assertion, rather than an assumption.

But I've given you an alternative scenario, that it's not necessarily a correct assumption/assertion, because it's also possible that it's not political, it's also possible that *some* Muslims might say Allahu akhbar instead of clapping.

Which Muslims do that? The Muslims who subscribe to those schools of thought that have that interpretation of the Quran and Hadith, or who have read the relevant parts of the Quran and Hadith and have decided, as individuals, that that is their own interpretation, or it's those Muslims who have been brought up to believe that due to religious and/or cultural traditions, or it's those Muslims who've met someone who's told them it's prohibited and they've just taken it at face value. I can't really be any more specific than that. I wasn't thinking of any particular schools of Islam thought and jurisprudence.

You're the one who wants to pigeon-hole people by political ideology. You're the one who's trying to pigeonhole anyone and assert that everyone who shouts Allahu akhbar must be an Islamist with an allegiance to Shia or Wahabbism or to Hamas who is making a political statement, when that's not necessarily the case.

I really don't get why you're being so blinkered and unable to accept that for *some* Muslims its simply equivalent to clapping with no underlying political Islamist meaning.

I'll answer the next point separately.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

And you're part of that problem, because you're projecting Islamist political ideologies on to many moderate Muslims for whom it wouldn't have that political undercurrent, for whom it would simply be something they do instead of clapping, because they understand that to be disliked or even haram

No liberals like you who ignore currents of Islamist discourse within Muslim communites or worse paint those trends as universal are the problem. Your argument helps disarm those opposed to Islamism in the fight for the hearts and minds of a billion people.

Dude, you're seeing the bogeyman everywhere.

You're tip-toeing round the edges of saying that Muslim=Islamist or Islamist tendencies.

 

[butchersapron]

Actually you are.

 

[rioted]

and anyone who waves a st georges cross is a crusader

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

...I think anyone who starts shouting "Allahu Akbar" or anything on those lines on these demos need to be kicked off the demo and asked to go home tbh.

But I pointed out that to *some* Muslims it's equivalent to clapping, and she just acknowledged my post and didn't come back at me trying to assert that all Muslims who say "Allahu akhbar" actually have some underlying political Islamist agenda.

And then danny la rouge posted and he agreed that people should be asked to leave. But he was replying to someone else, not me.

The context is whether it is helpful for anyone (Wesleyan, Catholic, Hari Krishna, Jewish or Muslim) to be randomly shouting "God Is Great" at a demo. It isn't, and whoever they are should be asked to leave it out.

I didn't respond to that, because I felt I'd already explained that people might not have been "randomly shouting 'God is great'" *some* Muslims might be shouting it as an alternative to clapping.

And then dylans posted, agreeing with Danny (and frogwoman's original point) that people shouting "Allahu akhbar" should asked to leave, but dylans went one step further and basically equated people who say "Allahu akhbar" with being Hamas supporters (on top of basically making the sweeping generalisation that it's a political slogan, a political statement) and I couldn't let that slide:

...I'm with Danny on this one and though I don't think people should be asked to leave a march because of it I think it is divisive and people should be challenged on it and told to pack it in. I don't want to March under a Hamas banner and I don't want to march under Hamas slogans.If they want to turn the march into a march for Hamas they are free to organise one of their own. They won't because it will be 3 men and a dog

 

[ymu]

The Israeli PR machine seems to have gotten a tad over-confident...

The Israeli government has been forced to apologise for circulating a spoof video mocking activists aboard the Gaza flotilla, nine of who were shot dead by Israeli forces last week.

...

A similar press office email was sent to foreign journalists two weeks ago, recommending a gourmet restaurant and Olympic-sized swimming pool in Gaza to highlight Israel's claim there is no humanitarian crisis there. Journalists who complained the email was in poor taste were told they had "no sense of humour".

Last week, the Israel Defence Force had to issue a retraction over an audio clip it had claimed was a conversation between Israeli naval officials and people on the Mavi Marmara, in which an activist told soldiers to "go back to Auschwitz". The clip was carried by Israeli and international press, but today the army released a "clarification/correction", explaining that it had edited the footage and that it was not clear who had made the comment.

The Israeli army also backed down last week from an earlier claim that soldiers were attacked by al-Qaida "mercenaries" aboard the Gaza flotilla. An article appearing on the IDF spokesperson's website with the headline: "Attackers of the IDF soldiers found to be al-Qaida mercenaries", was later changed to "Attackers of the IDF Soldiers found without identification papers," with the information about al-Qaida removed from the main article. An army spokesperson told the Guardian there was no evidence proving such a link to the terror organisation.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/israel-youtube-gaza-flotilla

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

I thought the discussion had moved on from that. I was talking about Annes tendency to claim as universal or representative of Islam as a whole themes which most definitely are not universal, such as the presentation of images etc.

Okay, let's rewind shall we?

Seriously, I don't have that "tendency" at all, you're clutching at straws now.

I was the one who was explaining that saying Allahu akhbar, to *some* Muslims, (in that kind of crowd/protest/listening to speech context) is the equivalent of clapping.

I was the one who repeatedly referred to *some* and *might*, I was very careful to qualify and not make sweeping generalisations.

You're the one who waded in from the start saying that it's political, basically no ifs or butts, it's political, it's Wahabbi, it's Shia, it's a Hamas supporter.

Just because you assert that, repeatedly, doesn't make it true. It doesn't follow that the more you assert it the more true it is.

I was referring to clapping. I was referring to *some* Muslims. And you're the one who has had a tendency to make sweeping generalisations about how saying Allahu akhbar is political.

Where is the tendency there, to make universal claims about themes?

You're the one who referred to images initially.

Here's what I said in response:

And as for the prohibition against depictions of prophets and for that matter other people or animals, that's not extremist either, so far as I'm aware, that one's actually universal, painting or sculptures of animals or people are haram. That's why Islamic art tends to be geometric patterns and calligraphy. As to whether people comply with that prohibition, or whether they are liberal and choose to ignore it or turn a blind eye, that's different, but I don't think it's disputed that it's prohibited. Or at least that's my understanding of that issue.

You and I know that it's in the Hadith [i.e. for those who don't know what the Hadith are, it's not the Quran, it's the various books of sayings of the prophet Muhammad as collated by various followers].

And those paintings don't prove that painting people or animals is permitted. It just proves that paintings of people or animals exist.
*Some* Muslims do things that are prohibited. That doesn't mean they are permitted. There isn't necessarily a causal link between the two.

I slipped up once amid numerous qualifications where I've specifically avoided making sweeping generalisations. I made one. I concede I shouldn't have said "universal".

...What is forbidden is the worship of images, something shared by all Abrahamic religions

Okay, I perhaps shouldn't have said universal, you're quite right it's related to a prohibition on idolatry. I accept
that clarification/correction.

How about you?

You've deflected it all back at me, neatly sidestepping that you've failed to back up your own assertions. So, where's your proof for that saying "Allahu akhbar" is political?

You haven't qualified it by saying *some* Muslims say it as a political statement... you've basically said it is political and you've equated it with Muslims who are Shia, Wahabbi, Hamas supporters, you've lumped all Muslims together as members of communities, the sum of which is a billion Islamists:

No liberals like you who ignore currents of Islamist discourse within Muslim communites or worse paint those trends as universal are the problem. Your argument helps disarm those opposed to Islamism in the fight for the hearts and minds of a billion people.

So, do you stand by what you've said?

Are you going to tell us where it says in the Quran and/or Hadith that saying "Allahu akhbar" is a political slogan or political statement?

 

[Sesquipedalian]

Can we get back on,
Topic Please ?

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

No, it was actually frogwoman.But I pointed out that to *some* Muslims it's equivalent to clapping, and she just acknowledged my post and didn't come back at me trying to assert that all Muslims who say "Allahu akhbar" actually have some underlying political Islamist agenda.

It's not political at all.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

'Islamist discourse' LOLWTF

 

[danny la rouge]

And then dylans posted, agreeing with Danny (and frogwoman's original point) that people shouting "Allahu akhbar" should asked to leave

I didn't say asked to leave, I said asked to leave it out. As in, asked if they mind desisting. My reasoning is that I don't go around shouting "I quite agree with Darwin" at demos. That said, I was unaware of the clapping thing. I know plenty of Muslims who do clap, but of course I am aware that there are differing interpretations.

And to DiscoKermit, if I'm on an anti-Gaza blockade demo, I'm not "on a demo in support of people who are oppressed because they are muslims", I'm on a demo in support of people who are oppressed because they're Palestinians. They may feel they're oppressed because they're Muslims, but that's a different matter. The Israelis think I'm opposing their policy because they're Jews.

 

[Flavour]

israeli navy has just ratched up another 4 kills for the week, this time palestinians, apparently in scuba gear

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10252229.stm

 

[danny la rouge]

Piece by Ilan Pappe in yesterday's Sunday Herald.

 

[Kanda]

Bad taste?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/israel-youtube-gaza-flotilla

 

[dylans]

And then dylans posted, agreeing with Danny (and frogwoman's original point) that people shouting "Allahu akhbar" should asked to leave,

Now you are misrepresenting me. I did not say anyone should be asked to leave. I said

I'm with Danny on this one and though I don't think people should be asked to leave a march because of it I think it is divisive and people should be challenged on it and told to pack it in

You misrepresent me repeatedly

You're the one who waded in from the start saying that it's political, basically no ifs or butts, it's political, it's Wahabbi, it's Shia, it's a Hamas supporter.

Just because you assert that, repeatedly, doesn't make it true. It doesn't follow that the more you assert it the more true it is.

I was referring to clapping. I was referring to *some* Muslims. And you're the one who has had a tendency to make sweeping generalisations about how saying Allahu akhbar is political.

o

No. I said that shouting Allahu Akbar on a political demonstration is a political statement. There is a world of difference between this exclamation in a Mosque and on a political demonstration over Gaza.

And those paintings don't prove that painting people or animals is permitted. It just proves that paintings of people or animals exist.
*Some* Muslims do things that are prohibited. That doesn't mean they are permitted.

You and I know that it's in the Hadith [i.e. for those who don't know what the Hadith are, it's not the Quran, it's the various books of sayings of the prophet Muhammad as collated by various followers].

that is outrageous franklly. It is coming very close to Wahabi claims that the Shia and other's such as the Ismaeli or the Ahmadi or the Cham etc are not Muslim. The source of sectarian attacks on Shia in Iraq and Pakistan. You are aware that Shia do not follow the 6 major Hadith collections. At a time when members of the Ahmadiya have just been massacred and the Ismaeli are under siege in Pakistan and the Shia continue to suffer sectarian attacks, this claim is pretty outrageous. It posits a view of Islam that is sectarian. A view that claims there is one and only one interpretation of Islam and those traditions that do not follow this are not true Muslims or are not behaving as "true" Muslims should.

Aware of this you then attempt to qualify this by saying this

Okay, I perhaps shouldn't have said universal, you're quite right it's related to a prohibition on idolatry. I accept that clarification/ correction.

So which is it? Either they are permitted or not. Either those, like the Shia who portray images etc are doing something which is prohibited and forbidden or they are not. Either their interpretation of islam is valid or it is not. Either they are Muslims or they are not.

You're tip-toeing round the edges of saying that Muslim=Islamist or Islamist tendencies

No, for the reasons I have given above, that accusation applies to you I am afraid

Now some people have said this is off topic (and I am happy to take it to another thread if people wish) but I want to spend a moment explaining why I think this is important.

I was on an anti racism/anti EDL Rally in Birmingham last year and there was a good contingent of Muslim Brummies on the demo, including a group of young women. After some encouragement one of the women stepped up to the mike and made a fantastic speech saying "the EDL want to say this is about "Islam." We are here today as British Muslims to say it's not. It's about being British.Whatever our religion, we are as British as you."

Some, including myself applauded this speech from a young Muslim woman who had probably never been on a demo in her life. I felt like she was my sister. Then, to my astonishment, there was some booing and a young man stepped up to the mike and disagreed. He said Islam was under attack, that Muslims should unite etc etc. Then he finished his speech with "Alluha Akbar.

Part of the group (including the woman who had spoken) immediately remonstrated with him and told him to pack it in. That he was being divisive and excluding the many non Muslims on the rally. Perhaps they couldnt express it clearly but they understood something very important. That by shouting Alluha Akbar, he was agreeing with the premis of the EDL that Islamic identity (defined by them) was more important than British identity and that by arguing that this was about Islam, he was excluding both non Muslim anti racists and secular British Muslims from that fight. This is an idea that is shared by both the racists of the EDL and the Islamists of Islam4UK. That this is about something called Islam. It is not. It is not about "Islam" in Britain and it is not about "Islam" in Palestine. It is about justice and equality and the fight against oppression.

 

[tangentlama]

'Biddun mey, fish heyya'

israeli navy has just ratched up another 4 kills for the week, this time palestinians, apparently in scuba gear

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10252229.stm

Kill first, ask questions later? Let's have a look at water quality & treatment in Gaza.

While diminishing water resources are a global concern, in Palestine the struggle for water is not against global warming or multinational corporations, but for access to water, and against contamination of what precious resources there are.

Mohamed Ahmed, director of the Water Control Department in the Palestinian Water Authority (PWA), says "there continues to be a very rapid depletion and deterioration of ground water."

The main source of water is the coastal aquifer and ground water, which serves Gaza's agriculture, commercial, industrial and public sectors, says Ahmed. But through the three weeks of Israeli attacks on Gaza last December and January, much of the water network infrastructure was destroyed or damaged, rendering already scarce water all the more scarce.

The destruction caused by Israeli shelling, tanks and bulldozers throughout the Strip further damaged Gaza's sanitation network, causing 150,000 cubic metres of untreated and partially treated sewage waste water to flow over agricultural and residential land and into the sea during the attacks. The daily average of wastewater being pumped into the sea is still a staggering 80,000 cubic metres.

The water treatment crisis has been a catastrophe in the making for decades. In 2004, a report on water alternatives published by the Islamic University of Gaza's Department of Environment and Earth Science said groundwater had already "deteriorated to a limit that the municipal tap water became brackish and unsuitable for human consumption" throughout the Strip.

Techniques introduced for improving water quality included desalination and reverse osmosis, importing bottled water, and collecting rain water. But these initiatives have been rendered increasingly futile in the face of years of Israeli assaults on Gaza's infrastructure, combined with its sanctions and siege regime, heightened since June 2007 when Hamas gained control of the Gaza Strip.

The siege has meant an increasingly long waiting list of spare parts, pipes, and building materials. This directly affects Gaza's ability to maintain its sanitation and water treatment facilities.

"We've been waiting for three years for these items to enter, along with desalination units," says Ibrahim Alejla, media officer for Gaza's Coastal Municipalities Water Utilities (CMWU).

In its January 2009 Damage Assessment Report, CMWU speaks of 5.97 million dollars damage to Gaza's water and wastewater treatment facilities and infrastructure. Some of the greatest damage was done in northern Gaza, where three new facilities were totally destroyed. Severe damage was caused to the North Gaza Emergency Sewage Treatment Plant, as well as to wastewater distribution networks throughout the north.

Government sources say that more than 800 of Gaza's 2,000 water wells were destroyed or rendered not useable from the last Israeli attacks.

Central Gaza also suffered. The Sheikh Rajleen Waste Water Treatment Plant, the largest in the Gaza Strip, was shelled, causing pipelines to rupture and raw sewage to flood more than a square kilometre of agricultural and residential land.

The CMWU says it had provided coordinates for all water and wastewater facilities to Israeli authorities. Yet throughout Gaza sites were hit. Much of the damage was to pipelines, torn up by Israeli tanks and bulldozers. Pipes are among the items Israeli authorities bar from entering Gaza.

The PWA's Mohamed Ahmed says the sandy nature of the Sheikh Rajleen region brought wastewater permeation into ground water. "Areas with clay and soil tend to slow the drainage, but in Sheikh Rajleen the sewage water very quickly drained into the ground water."

Ahmed says "we've found the presence of detergents in our monitoring wells, indicating that wastewater and ground water have mixed." Monther Shoblak, CMWU director, said this type of contamination occurred also in Beit Hanoun to the north of Gaza City where facilities were destroyed.

Central Gaza's Wadi Gaza region is one of the most visible and noxious sites of sewage dumping. The black sludge streaming into the sea is seen and smelt by passengers on the ride south from Gaza city.

Ibrahim Alejla of CMWU says the flow of sewage into the sea is not only dangerous, but wasteful. "If the borders were open, and we could get the chemicals and equipment needed to treat the water, it could be re-used in agriculture."

Mohamed Ahmed says nitrate levels have for the past two years been three times the World Health Organisation (WHO) limit. Nitrates are believed to be carcinogenic.

"It is too soon to see all of the negative impacts," says Mohamed Ahmed. And with Gaza's Islamic University chemical laboratories bombed during Israel's attacks, "Gaza has no facilities for testing water for the presence of heavy metals and other contaminants."

Ahmed believes numerous chemical pollutants will be found when the tests are carried out. "The war occurred during winter, during our rainy season. When it rained, the chemicals and pollutants in the air went directly into the ground water."

The CMWU and PWA say that many of the most affected areas have had their water networks repaired. "The municipalities chlorinate water to eliminate contamination," says Ahmed. But difficulties arise when Israeli authorities prevent the entry of chlorine into Gaza. "Then the government issues advisories not to drink the network water."

Ahmed warns of the effect on rural residents from contaminated ground water. "Many people depend on wells for their drinking water," he says.

The water problems extend beyond consumption of tainted water. The Gaza health ministry and WHO have issued swimming advisories, listing seven extremely polluted areas as high-risk for diarrhoeal and skin diseases.

Khaled Al-Habil, a fishermen at Gaza city port, says the waste-polluted sea is destroying marine life.

"If you open the fish up, they are black inside. Not like normal fish. The sewage is destroying the fish. People who swim in the water at the port, their skin becomes irritated, like a rash," Al-Habil said.

"I'm a fishermen, I know fish. But there are others who don't know it's from the port, who buy and eat them," he said. http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=47273

Link to wildlife portal: http://portal.wildlife-pal.org/php/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=18

 

[tangentlama]

Imagine my surprise, given British preconceptions, when I heard an Arabic-speaking Christian say "Allahu Akhbar".

I think she was being slightly ironic. But "god is great" doesn't specify which god

It translates as "The Deity is great" (gender neutral).

The Deity being the same deity as the deity of Abraham (arabic: Ibrahim), the same deity loved and feared by Jews, Christians and Muslims.

 

[TAE]

 

[TAE]

Imagine my surprise, given British preconceptions, when I heard an Arabic-speaking Christian say "Allahu Akhbar".

I think she was being slightly ironic. But "god is great" doesn't specify which god

That is still kind of odd as I would have expected the arabic equivalent of "Praise the Lord".

 

[smokedout]

It really isn't antagonistic or provocative behaviour that warrants someone being kicked off a demo and being sent home.

how about chanting death to israel, singing from the river to the sea, chanting scum at squaddies and chanting in support of Hamas?

 

[frogwoman]

how about chanting death to israel, singing from the river to the sea, chanting scum at squaddies and chanting in support of Hamas?

The river to the sea is allright, i didn't hear anyone chanting scum at the squaddies, but i was terrified it was going to happen

 

[smokedout]

The river to the sea is allright, i didn't hear anyone chanting scum at the squaddies, but i was terrified it was going to happen

i did

and im not sure that a chant that represents for many the end of israel really is alright