"Is Man Just Another Animal?" Professor Steve Jones says...
- Thread starter gorski
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gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
And is there honey still for tea ?
ska invita
back on the other side
I've been to a Chinese restaurant in aba... You can get chips. Or that welsh classic, half and half. Does he mention that?Worth watching for one passage alone - the story about the first Chinese restaurant in Aberystwyth.
Limejuice
Well-Known Member
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
He could do with considering more animals beyond primates. The talk doesn't go very far beyond examining how humans are different from chimps, and he's probably unconsciously set up a hierarchy there, with humans at the top, which is his starting point rather than his conclusion.
eg: chimps don't teach. So what? Killer whales do, so humans aren't the only animals that teach.
Other big statements of supposedly unique human attributes, such as compassion for non-relatives and a sense of history and the future, are also highly questionable. And again, he seems not to be considering much beyond other primates here.
The strongest argument is to do with language, although I think grand statements about the language abilities of others could do with more qualifications until more is understood about other animals' communications. Again back to killer whales - we're only really just beginning to scratch the surface of their behaviour, and it is increasingly clear from their behaviour that they're communicating with one another in ways we don't yet understand. The history of the study of animal behaviour has been one of knocking down one pillar after another of supposed human uniqueness. Fully formed language today is one such pillar. Things such as tool-use or culture used to be, but now very clearly are not.
eg: chimps don't teach. So what? Killer whales do, so humans aren't the only animals that teach.
Other big statements of supposedly unique human attributes, such as compassion for non-relatives and a sense of history and the future, are also highly questionable. And again, he seems not to be considering much beyond other primates here.
The strongest argument is to do with language, although I think grand statements about the language abilities of others could do with more qualifications until more is understood about other animals' communications. Again back to killer whales - we're only really just beginning to scratch the surface of their behaviour, and it is increasingly clear from their behaviour that they're communicating with one another in ways we don't yet understand. The history of the study of animal behaviour has been one of knocking down one pillar after another of supposed human uniqueness. Fully formed language today is one such pillar. Things such as tool-use or culture used to be, but now very clearly are not.
Errrmmm... Yep, that's it...
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Am I to defer to him cos he's a professor? 
If I'd been at the talk, I'd have asked him about killer whales teaching their young and the scrub jay's sense of the future. But I wasn't.
If I'd been at the talk, I'd have asked him about killer whales teaching their young and the scrub jay's sense of the future. But I wasn't.
gorski
customised free radical
Yeah, yeah, you would have crushed him...
Especially if you had at least the same amount of time as him, to show him how it's really, properly done, piling it all up, whatever you can scratch from our "ancestors", gorgeously anthropomorphising it and then triumphantly dance around the table naked, laughing shreeeeekingly, like any real genius, crazy professor - where you clearly belong...
Especially if you had at least the same amount of time as him, to show him how it's really, properly done, piling it all up, whatever you can scratch from our "ancestors", gorgeously anthropomorphising it and then triumphantly dance around the table naked, laughing shreeeeekingly, like any real genius, crazy professor - where you clearly belong...
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I wouldn't have crushed him. But I'd quite possibly have questioned him, given the chance. He may very well have had good and interesting answers.
You've not been to many science talks, have you?
As it is, all I have on this thread from you is this video, without any comment from you on it at all. And the talk is limited in scope, spending much of its time outlining how we're different from chimps. The question is far wider than that, and yes, that is a criticism from me of his talk. The talk isn't really 'is man just another animal?'. It's 'is man just another ape?'
You've not been to many science talks, have you?
As it is, all I have on this thread from you is this video, without any comment from you on it at all. And the talk is limited in scope, spending much of its time outlining how we're different from chimps. The question is far wider than that, and yes, that is a criticism from me of his talk. The talk isn't really 'is man just another animal?'. It's 'is man just another ape?'
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I thought that culture in (non-human) animals is in it's very early stages of research, rather than being a widely proved thing with lots of supporting evidence?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Depending on your definition, very certainly widely proved. This is a definition arrived at by Whitehead and Rendell:
What would your definition be?
I don't have one, personally, but the Whitehead and Rendell definition seems to make sense.
I suppose what I'm thinking is that what we consider to be culture largely consists of art forms which are essentially superfluous to survival.
I suppose dolphins doing barrel rolls/ somersaults and riding waves is a good example of a facet of animal culture which is non-essential in survival terms.
I suppose what I'm thinking is that what we consider to be culture largely consists of art forms which are essentially superfluous to survival.
I suppose dolphins doing barrel rolls/ somersaults and riding waves is a good example of a facet of animal culture which is non-essential in survival terms.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
To illustrate why I think that talk is limited in its scope, I would compare with a hypothetical cetacean doing a similar thing, but in its case seeking to prove that cetaceans are really rather special and remarkable. To do this, it examines the hippopotamus, its closest living land relative (common ancestor around 50 million years ago). Clearly, aside from the other adaptations, cetaceans have developed mental abilities far in excess of those of the hippo. Ergo cetaceans are special.
One last criticism.
Jones is cavalier in declaring that a whale's brain is so big because its body is so big. The relation between brain/body size and intelligence is a highly disputed area, and Jones simplifies to the point of not being correct. The connectivity of brains is now being more widely considered, as in this Scientific American article.
One last criticism.
Jones is cavalier in declaring that a whale's brain is so big because its body is so big. The relation between brain/body size and intelligence is a highly disputed area, and Jones simplifies to the point of not being correct. The connectivity of brains is now being more widely considered, as in this Scientific American article.ferrelhadley
There is no love between us anymore.
Isn't it a violation of the code of conduct not to offer your own thoughts in the OP and just produce some video or newspaper clipping etc with a generic "discuss"
bubblesmcgrath
Well-Known Member
He does say that in terms of DNA humans are "failed chimpanzees". He compares humans and chimps because they are the closest relative to himans still extant.
The discussion on brain size is not new nor is the language debate. The gene foxp2 mention is really interesting...
That human foxp2 has evolved since the split from neanderthals.....and the fact that the evolution of spoken language makes humans unique animals.
bi0boy
Power User
Why would having culture mean we aren't animals? I bet dogs think they're not animals because only they can discriminate so finely between the odours of different types of poop.
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