toblerone3
Grrrrr
You like to talk the talk and wear Anarchism like a fasionable piece of clothing, but you don't like to walk the walk.
Is it wrong for an anarchist to take a supervisory/managerial job
- Thread starter Shevek
- Start date
You like to talk the talk and wear Anarchism like a fasionable piece of clothing, but you don't like to walk the walk.
dennisr
the acceptable face
seriously - this thread reminds me not to take modern uk 'anarchism' all that seriously as a body of ideas.
the mountain of knowledge and ideas practical that early anarchists built in extrordinarily difficult circumstances cannot really decend to this thread can it?
I found some anarchist ideas inspiring - it made me a trade unionist, a socialist and for my sins some form of marxist.
dennisr
the acceptable face
its a slippery slope from anarchist to liberal. tut, tut.
you need a squat, a nearby dole office, some dogs and bits of string, and tofu burgers - that sort of thing - to retain any principles
and not pay into gigs or buy records
If you remain on the bottom rung in any job, there will come a time when you have a line manager who does such a bad job that you realise you would do their job much better. You might even have a succession of bad line-managers. Then when you get the chance to apply for such a job you will have the problem of deciding if it is better to let another potential bad manager get the job or to take it yourself and do a better job - better in the sense of looking after the bottom rung people that is.
dennisr
the acceptable face
One of the best jobs I have ever had was with a really decent manager (and decent human being). Formally, she was the manager - in practice she covered us, ensured that as long as work was done we did not have to pretend to be working during quiet periods pointlessly and fought tooth and nail from her position to ensure we were decently treated, had proper breaks and decent equipment. She realised our jobs depended on our working well as a team.
The worst jobs I've had have involved crap managers as much as crap bosses. Arseholes who simply passed on orders rather than negotiating them (up or down) and never dared to put in the practical requests (usually health and safety based) we asked for.
As long as you are a decent rounded human being with a reasonably good grounding - that can keep you grounded if you do come under pressure to be part of any crackdown - in the reality behind daft hierarchies you could well be a decent 'manager'. Just try and remember how its like for those looking up at you
Struwwelpeter
Earthling
@ Shevek:
You are an anarchist but you work for the government (i.e. the civil service). On my interpretation of anarchism, this is a greater compromise of beliefs than becoming a manager.
To me, as a manager of a small team, that is what a manager does. Whether you are organising to create an "Anarchist Utopia" or to get the job done, you have taken on a leadership role.
In relation to the work itself, it very much depends on the job, but good management can be as much to do with inspiring and guiding people as being the boss. I am not very good at either of these and I am about to hand over my management post to a colleague so that I can get back down to getting hands dirty. I work for a small company where no one particularly likes managing, so many management jobs are done in rotation for a few years - probably not inconsistent with some views of anarchism, although no one calls it that.
TBH, a low level management role can often mean that you are wearing 2 hats - passing down missives from on high and passing up the grumbles from below. It can be a thankless task with everyone above and below pissed off with you. On the other hand, you might be good at it and get people to achieve great things. Within a smaller organisation than the civil service, I would regard (temporary) leadership through guidance and inspiration as entirely consistent with anarchism.
IIRC, didn't your namesake encounter similar quandries?
Also, what dennisr said ^^^
You are an anarchist but you work for the government (i.e. the civil service). On my interpretation of anarchism, this is a greater compromise of beliefs than becoming a manager.
To me, as a manager of a small team, that is what a manager does. Whether you are organising to create an "Anarchist Utopia" or to get the job done, you have taken on a leadership role.
In relation to the work itself, it very much depends on the job, but good management can be as much to do with inspiring and guiding people as being the boss. I am not very good at either of these and I am about to hand over my management post to a colleague so that I can get back down to getting hands dirty. I work for a small company where no one particularly likes managing, so many management jobs are done in rotation for a few years - probably not inconsistent with some views of anarchism, although no one calls it that.
TBH, a low level management role can often mean that you are wearing 2 hats - passing down missives from on high and passing up the grumbles from below. It can be a thankless task with everyone above and below pissed off with you. On the other hand, you might be good at it and get people to achieve great things. Within a smaller organisation than the civil service, I would regard (temporary) leadership through guidance and inspiration as entirely consistent with anarchism.
IIRC, didn't your namesake encounter similar quandries?
Also, what dennisr said ^^^
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
You're not a manager jim, surely?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Yeah, to echo missfran's approach (
), Shevek's already sold out doing what s/he's doing as a job in itself Resign, Shevek!!!! There are principles at stake here !!!!!rofl
But no, Shevek, just go ahead with your life, jobs etc, but understand what you're doing while you're doing it. As long as you've got your head around the principles and want to try and live your life that way - go for it. There's no need to join any of these fucking political parties (anarchist or not) that spend all their time arguing against each other
CyberRose
أرفع الشفرات
Or right, if they make a success out of their life!
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
There's only so far one can get with the fetishisation of personal politics.
It's the old "ooooh........I saw you accepting a lift the other day, and you say you're a Green.......but you're a HYPOCRITE!!!!!11!
Should anti-capitalists never earn or spend money?
What matters far more is the kind of person you are. On average I'd much sooner have a supervisor who identified with anarchism than most other philosophies. Yes, there is that stuff about slippy slopes and it's true of most people in most situations. I really wouldnt stress too much about it if I were you, not being a nobhead is the main thing.
It's the old "ooooh........I saw you accepting a lift the other day, and you say you're a Green.......but you're a HYPOCRITE!!!!!11!
Should anti-capitalists never earn or spend money?
What matters far more is the kind of person you are. On average I'd much sooner have a supervisor who identified with anarchism than most other philosophies. Yes, there is that stuff about slippy slopes and it's true of most people in most situations. I really wouldnt stress too much about it if I were you, not being a nobhead is the main thing.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Could you not work as a social anthropologist?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Yes!
And that 'not being a nobhead' thing extends to the wider community, immediate geographical area, county, country etc etc
the button
out on the kocker
dennisr
the acceptable face
well, any anarchist society would run on people and society delgating authority to those with the skills and experience to ensure that a particular task gets done correctly. Some times this will mean having a "manager" for, as an example, a group project. The only other option would be to have a vote each time a washer gets changed on a tap etc.
The principle that autority delegated is authority retained is essential to any anarchist society.
I just mention that because the idea that anarchists would be completely without leaders of any description is laughable. People of influence and talent would have an essential role to play in such a society, and for an anarchist to suggest otherwise is to do a disservice to his/her own beliefs.
But how does this relate to an anarchist living in a capitalist society? Well, to be honest, it doesn't. Someone under such circumstances will find it impossible to do any job without selling themselves out to a greater or lesser extent. Work in McDonalds? Supporting coroporate bastardry. Minimum wage for a charity? Allowing yourself to be walked all over. Making a semi-respectable wage in, say, nursing? propogating a (capitalist) western "democracy" by being a part of the governments machine.
And that is to suggest that we all have total freedom of employment. In reality, we all have limitations of ability, desire, qualification etc.
But everyone (even anarchists) need to do something to get by. What you do is up to you. The only person you have to answer to is yourself. Do you feel comfortable instructing people what to do all day? Can you do it without being a bastard? Does it go against your principles to such an extent that you can no longer call them principles? In a capitalist world, you have to play by capitalist rules. You may have to do things you don't like to get by, to support yourself and your family. We're all exploited. We all whore ourselves out on a daily basis.
But, if it really concerns you, then perhaps the best way of looking at it is "if the revolution were to happen tomorrow, would I survive it?"
The principle that autority delegated is authority retained is essential to any anarchist society.
I just mention that because the idea that anarchists would be completely without leaders of any description is laughable. People of influence and talent would have an essential role to play in such a society, and for an anarchist to suggest otherwise is to do a disservice to his/her own beliefs.
But how does this relate to an anarchist living in a capitalist society? Well, to be honest, it doesn't. Someone under such circumstances will find it impossible to do any job without selling themselves out to a greater or lesser extent. Work in McDonalds? Supporting coroporate bastardry. Minimum wage for a charity? Allowing yourself to be walked all over. Making a semi-respectable wage in, say, nursing? propogating a (capitalist) western "democracy" by being a part of the governments machine.
And that is to suggest that we all have total freedom of employment. In reality, we all have limitations of ability, desire, qualification etc.
But everyone (even anarchists) need to do something to get by. What you do is up to you. The only person you have to answer to is yourself. Do you feel comfortable instructing people what to do all day? Can you do it without being a bastard? Does it go against your principles to such an extent that you can no longer call them principles? In a capitalist world, you have to play by capitalist rules. You may have to do things you don't like to get by, to support yourself and your family. We're all exploited. We all whore ourselves out on a daily basis.
But, if it really concerns you, then perhaps the best way of looking at it is "if the revolution were to happen tomorrow, would I survive it?"
Actually in the AF we seem to spend more time discussing workplace activity than anything else. We should have a pamphlet out on this next month...
glenquagmire
Rightwing NuLab apologist
Zachor will love this thread.
Not sure I'd ever want a management position. Certainly not as long as I'm a shop steward. Inevitably you will eventually have to choose between fucking over your colleagues and standing up to management (and getting fired), neither of which appeal to me.
Not sure I'd ever want a management position. Certainly not as long as I'm a shop steward. Inevitably you will eventually have to choose between fucking over your colleagues and standing up to management (and getting fired), neither of which appeal to me.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Principles are not bought or sold, they are held.
there's such things as good and bad managers. the bad ones are power/money driven nobheads who get off on making their underlings lives as difficult as possible and there's not so bad ones who will look out for their staff as long as they dont take the piss and act as a bit of a buffer between the workers and higher management. the latter usually ends up in the position through knowlege and experience on the shop floor whilst the former gets there through nepotism or creeping up to the right people and stabbing potential competition in the back. i have no interest in becoming a manager, particulary.
Basically I just read anarchist literature and agree with it, am inspired by it. I dont actually DO anything sad to say
sounds good. I keep thinking about joining but I am a member of the liberal democrats and I would need to leave the LibDems before I join the AF.
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
What industry were you in? Excuse all the questions, I'm a nosey bugger.
Yeah, you're right on that one!
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
One of the best jobs I have ever had was with a really decent manager (and decent human being). Formally, she was the manager - in practice she covered us, ensured that as long as work was done we did not have to pretend to be working during quiet periods pointlessly and fought tooth and nail from her position to ensure we were decently treated, had proper breaks and decent equipment. She realised our jobs depended on our working well as a team.
The worst jobs I've had have involved crap managers as much as crap bosses. Arseholes who simply passed on orders rather than negotiating them (up or down) and never dared to put in the practical requests (usually health and safety based) we asked for.
As long as you are a decent rounded human being with a reasonably good grounding - that can keep you grounded if you do come under pressure to be part of any crackdown - in the reality behind daft hierarchies you could well be a decent 'manager'. Just try and remember how its like for those looking up at you
There's only so far one can get with the fetishisation of personal politics.
It's the old "ooooh........I saw you accepting a lift the other day, and you say you're a Green.......but you're a HYPOCRITE!!!!!11!
Should anti-capitalists never earn or spend money?
What matters far more is the kind of person you are. On average I'd much sooner have a supervisor who identified with anarchism than most other philosophies. Yes, there is that stuff about slippy slopes and it's true of most people in most situations. I really wouldnt stress too much about it if I were you, not being a nobhead is the main thing.
Both of these ^^^, especially taffboy's bit about managers who identify with anarchism.
The one thing I've found with managers, good and bad, is that it's not being a manager that makes you a twat, it's being a twat and becoming a manager that's the problem. I've had managers so shite I've wanted to punch them as soon as I saw them in the office in the morning; OTOH I've had managers who have been so supportive and inspirational that handing my resignation in felt like kicking a puppy - try and be the latter manager, not the former!
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