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Is it left wing to tolerate crack dealers?

phildwyer said:
If you are unable to see that to advocate legalization of drugs while also calling for greater police persecution of drug dealers is a moral and logical paradox, there is little hope for you.
Where have I called for "persecution"?

Even things that people approve of can have unwanted side effects, and they can legitimately, and with no contradiction, ask for action to reduce these side effects without demanding that the thing itself is supressed.

It might be that legalisation would sort oput a lot of these harmful side effects, but there is no need to wait until that has been completed to take action to reduce the harm that is happening right now.

PS. If you read my posts in this thread you will find that I have never advocated vigilante action etc.

Edit: BTW phildwyer, you seem to know alot about the dealers on Coldharbour Lane - are you actually living in the UK now or do you still live in the US? You are not just relying on some romantic memory of CHL from years ago are you, while actually living in some affluent and leafy suburb thousands of miles away?
 
phildwyer said:
I'd feel a lot safer living next door to a crackhouse than to Likesfish, that's for sure.


I'd rather live beside someone like likesfish than you thats for sure.

phildwyer said:
They're not aliens from outer space, even if some of them are a different colour from you.

WTF has colour got to do with it? :rolleyes:
 
All the problems people here are mentioning are caused by the fact that drug use and dealing are illegal. They should all be legalized, as has been done in many countries already. Prohibition does not prevent drug use, it merely renders it sordid and criminal. I can tell that some people here are genuinely well-meaning and concerned for the welfare of communities, but many others (as usual) simply get a quasi-sexual thrill from fantasizing about violence against "scum." I suspect that these people are completely ignorant of drug users and dealers. There is no doubt that such people are infinitely worse, morally, than the dealers themselves, or that they represent a far greater threat to decent society. I'd feel a lot safer living next door to a crackhouse than to Likesfish, that's for sure.

This is as shortsighted and naive as the people you claim to rail against. Let's not pretend that all dealers are ok people, and just misunderstood. The profits involved attract the worst and most ruthless in our society, at least be honest about it. Personally I'd rather the such dangerous substances weren't in the control of criminals (i.e. a more virulent strain of capitalists), perhaps total legalisation would be better, but there is no guarantee. Which countries have legalised crack by the way? And again, what of the members of our society, as it is now and will be for the forseeable future, who are intimidated by drug use and all of it's related activities?
 
Jo/Joe said:
The profits involved attract the worst and most ruthless in our society, at least be honest about it.

Talk about naive. The "worst and most ruthless in our society" are running the country.
 
Talk about naive. The "worst and most ruthless in our society" are running the country.

Come off it. Has Prescott ever used a shotgun on anyone? Sliced anyone up? Punching that guy with the egg doesn't count.
 
TeeJay said:
Edit: BTW phildwyer, you seem to know alot about the dealers on Coldharbour Lane - are you actually living in the UK now or do you still live in the US? You are not just relying on some romantic memory of CHL from years ago are you, while actually living in some affluent and leafy suburb thousands of miles away?

I don't know how often I have to repeat this, or why its so hard to believe or understand. I live in central Philadelphia, where there are drug dealers on my block 24/7. I visit Brixton, where members of my family live, for long weekends 5 or 6 times a year, and on these occasions I drink in the Albert and the Dogstar, eat at Fujiyama and the Ethiopian place, and generally hang out in Coldharbour Lane. Presently I am in Wales, off to the Cardiff City game, which is one place I trust not to be troubled by crack dealers or internet vigilantes.
 
Jo/Joe said:
Come off it. Has Prescott ever used a shotgun on anyone? Sliced anyone up? Punching that guy with the egg doesn't count.

Invading Iraq bloody well counts, you twit!
 
phildwyer said:
Absolute rubbish. You have no idea what you're talking about. The people who take the "hardest" line on drugs are facist authoritarians and weird perverts. In a previous post, I compared blaming the dealers for the drugs problem to the USA blaming Colombia for *its* drugs problem. If there was no demand, there'd be no supply. In many cases, its the *users* who are exploiting the *dealers.* A middle-class, recreational user of cocaine will typically experience no legal or social repercussions. The dealer who sells him his gear will typically have few other choices or resources, and will face many years in jail if detected.



You are the one whose experience seems to be limited, with your 'I lived in da ghetto' posturing. Try mixing with more regular people-you know, the ones who have to be up in the morning to do the work that keeps society functioning-and see what the broad consensus on the drug dealers in their midst really is.
 
phildwyer resorts to playing the race card

phildwyer said:
The point you seem unable to grasp is that dealers are *members* of the community. They're not aliens from outer space, even if some of them are a different colour from you.



Shows you're getting desparate when you have to bring race into it. All too typical of the cardboard radical.

Did I mention race?

You don't know me-how do you know I'm not black?

I'm not sure, but I'm probably within my rights to report you to the mods for that post-veiled allegations of racism on no grounds whatsoever. I've never reported anybody, however, and it probably suffices that you have made a cunt of yourself.
 
phildwyer said:
Talk about naive. The "worst and most ruthless in our society" are running the country.


It's amusing that the cardboard radical who says he spent a month or two in da ghetto can throw accusations of naivete about and then come out with statements like this.

Anybody fancy those with the morals and outlook of the local drugs cartel running the show? No, me neither.
 
phildwyer said:
Drug dealers are disproportionally black. A lot of the hatred directed against them is un- or semi-conscious racism.



Not everywhere. Your limited experience is showing through once more.

And the references to unconcious and semi-conscious racism speaks volumes.

Did you make a career for yourself with the CRE after you survived da ghetto?
 
phildwyer said:
The point you seem unable to grasp is that dealers are *members* of the community. They're not aliens from outer space, even if some of them are a different colour from you.



The dealers I referred to in the earlier post are neither black (nor are 95% of their customers, as far as I've ever been able to tell.) Nor are they 'members of the community' in any meaningful sense. They are typical of the 'fly-by-nights' who are increasingly coming to dominate large swathes of those parts of the major cities where privately-rented accomodation is concentrated.

Their activities have made a part of the community a worse place to live, due to the fact that their flat being in a row of shops that contains the only mini-market in the immediate area that opens late, people have to run the gaunlet of the dubious characters who now hang about outside it for hours on end. The only phone box in reasonable walking distance is out of bounds to all but those indulging their sordid little habit too-no joke if you are old and infirm and need to use it. Most of the users don't make me particularly nervous, but it's a different story for somebody like my wife, if she ever happens to have to use the shop alone after dark, and worse still for the old and elderly. The latter, in particular, often have no experience of drugs and drugged-up behaviour. They have a right not to have to put up with it. Plus, in recent years, more high-level dealers, including the probable suppliers of the dealers in question, have brought gun violence into the area, something that was unthinkable even when I moved here around the tiime of the millenium.

In short, the dealers couldn't give a toss for the community, and neither could most of their customers.
 
if i'd or toby had come out with the gem that most drugdealers are black how long before i'd have been banned :mad: :rolleyes:.
I know everyone thinks I foam at the mouth and cuddle up of a night with a collection of replica guns :D
if drug dealers are not causing the community a problem then personally i'd leave them alone. although how a low level dealer and his addict customers are going to manage to hold it together so as not to impact on a community .

few questions if you old neighbour is mugged hows that not related to drug use
your kids offered money to act as look out for a dealer
your child start using drugs
 
likesfish said:
few questions if you old neighbour is mugged hows that not related to drug use
your kids offered money to act as look out for a dealer
your child start using drugs

You seem to be assuming that I haven't been affected. I have been burgled, I have been mugged, I have been intimidated, my car has been broken into, their are dealers in my local community. However, I'm not so simple minded as to think that there is an easy solution that involves hardman fantasies and not giving a shit about people from my community who have been very damaged and cope with it through drugs.
Most of the discussion on here about the subject is pathetically simplistic - its a very complex problem and simple solutions won't cut it.
 
Blagsta said:
You seem to be assuming that I haven't been affected. I have been burgled, I have been mugged, I have been intimidated, my car has been broken into, their are dealers in my local community. However, I'm not so simple minded as to think that there is an easy solution that involves hardman fantasies and not giving a shit about people from my community who have been very damaged and cope with it through drugs.
Most of the discussion on here about the subject is pathetically simplistic - its a very complex problem and simple solutions won't cut it.
You seem to be in favour - although I might be misunderstanding you - of the status quo, where certain communities are forced to deal with the consequences of 'very damaged people coping with it through drugs' whether they like it or not?
 
bristol_citizen said:
You seem to be in favour - although I might be misunderstanding you - of the status quo, where certain communities are forced to deal with the consequences of 'very damaged people coping with it through drugs' whether they like it or not?

I don't know how you got that impression. What I'm in favour of is some intelligent thinking on the subject and a bit of compassion for people with addiction problems. Its not a "lifestyle choice". That's just idiotic thinking. As I said in a previous post (which I'm guessing you didn't bother to read), if communities were to link up with user groups, organisations like the Methadone Alliance, set up activities for young people basically approach the problem in holistic way then yeah, good idea. Merely advocating the hardman approach, calling people "scum" and saying that you don't give a shit about people with drug problems (who are in fact members of the community whether you like it or not) is just pathetically simpleminded.
 
Just caught up with reading this thread, IMO Blags is talking the most sense.

Haven't yet had time to read those IWCA articles though -- will do so later.
 
while i sympathise with what blagsta is saying in that dealers are part of the communty .. usually more of the community than U75 types .. it is also true that what they are doing is very destructive to that commuity .. and not just the craok either .. i think just the plain hash as much as alcohol fcks up w/c kids .. sure it 'gets then thru' but fcks their brains at the same time ..

so yep you are probably right we should not think of the hooded dealer kids on bikes as scum .. but what of the guy in the audi TT/ porsche cayenne who would be only too happy to shoot you or the kid if he got in the way? .. are we really not allowed to think of him as scum?? .. well we probably shouldn't as it is dehumanising .. but it is hard not too
 
phildwyer said:
Consider the example of the Lower East Side of Manhattan, where I used to live. When I moved there, it was the most culturally active and politically radical neighborhood I had ever seen. It was a 50-50 mixture of poor Puerto Ricans and white Bohemians. The two groups got along very well, often organizing political action around common causes. The communist and anarchist meetings were packed with working-class immigrants--how often do you see that in the UK? The popular culture of the neighborhood was world-famous, it was the birthplace of the Beatnik and Punk movements, both Allen Ginsburg and Richard Hell were regularly seen on the streets and in the bars. The Nuorican Poets' Cafe brought Puerto Rican Spanglish to the world's attention. The only place I've ever found that is remotely comparable in its atmosphere is Brixton.

Now, there was one characteristic of the neighborhood that many of you apparently see as a problem. There were crack and heroin dealers on almost every block. Lots and lots of them: I would be approached ten times as I walked accross the road for a coffee. I never had a problem with any of them, and nor did anyone else I knew. I suppose their customers did bring street-crime with them, and you had to watch your back, but it wasn't the end of the world.

Anyway, by the early '90's there were campaigns to get the dealers out, just as some of you are proposing in Brixton. They weren't organized by the working-class, from whose ranks the dealers were drawn, and who generally saw the trade as a vital source of income for their community. They were organized by the advance guard of Yuppies, who had bought property there, but more expecially they were organized--behind the scenes, naturally--by property speculators. They would buy cheap, subsidize protests by "local" groups, and wait for the neighborhood to "improve."

Which, with the election of the fanatically authoritarian Rudy Giuliani as Mayor in 1992, it rapidly did. Within two years, there wasn't a single dealer to be found. They all went to prison, given ridiculously Draconian sentences. Of course, all the squats had to go as well--there was a brilliant punk squat on my block with a big A for anarchy sculpture of scrap metal that you'll remember if you visited the LES in the 80's, it was closed within days of Giuliani's election. Then all the best bars and cafes changed hands because they couldn't afford the new rent--as I write CBGB's looks like it is finally capitulating, imagine how different the world would be if there's been no CBGB's. They became bland, faceless places for Yuppies.

And those of you who think anti-dealer campaigns are a good plan for Brixton should guess what else happened. Housing rents rose. A *lot.* Suddenly the working-class people couldn't afford to live there any more. They dispersed to the outer boroughs, their communities destroyed. Then *middle* class people couldn't afford to live there any more. Today, you won't find a one-bedroom in the LES for under $3000. So the only people who live there are bankers and lawyers and doctors. It is now much like any other neighborhood in any other American city. The march of homogenization continues unchecked. I suppose that pretty soon everywhere will be like everywhere else: Brixton will be like Chelsea. But when that happens, I wonder how many of you will be living there.


so what was yuri kapralov talking about when he describes how the drugs destroyed the lower east side of the 6ts and early 7ts in his once there was a village????

and more recently while bits of the LES and alphabet were cool ..the further west you are .. the further east you got was always nasty .. or has that changed too?? i thought that punks and radicals didn't go much past avenue c??

tbh i think you are being nieve as to ignoring the effect drugs had on those communities .. and maybe the dealing /dealers didn't fck you but what about the effect WITHIN their community??
 
I think your asking a bit much for communites that are suffering from the activitys of dealers and there addict customers to reach out to them :rolleyes:
prompt action by the authorites against propertys used for dealing and zero toleration of street level dealing so the Public spaces are free for the use of all not the minority of dealers and there customers.
I'm sorry drug problomatic drug users same as street drinkers are the problem.
Once a community can use its public spaces and local amenties without fear then I'll consider working with user groups. in my limited experiance the sort of person who attends a user group is not the smae character whose mugging old people for there next fix :(
 
Blagsta said:
if communities were to link up with user groups, organisations like the Methadone Alliance, set up activities for young people basically approach the problem in holistic way then yeah, good idea.
This only tackles the demand side, not the supply side though.
Blagsta said:
Merely advocating the hardman approach, calling people "scum" and saying that you don't give a shit about people with drug problems (who are in fact members of the community whether you like it or not) is just pathetically simpleminded.
Agreed.
 
durruti02 said:
so yep you are probably right we should not think of the hooded dealer kids on bikes as scum .. but what of the guy in the audi TT/ porsche cayenne who would be only too happy to shoot you or the kid if he got in the way? .. are we really not allowed to think of him as scum?? .. well we probably shouldn't as it is dehumanising .. but it is hard not too

You're right here - its not the street dealers who are (neccesarily the scum bags. Its the ones further up, driving the posh cars, wearing the expensive suits watches. They're the scum.
 
likesfish said:
I think your asking a bit much for communites that are suffering from the activitys of dealers and there addict customers to reach out to them :rolleyes:

So instead you propose vigilantism against some of the most vulnerable people in the community? Nice.

likesfish said:
prompt action by the authorites against propertys used for dealing and zero toleration of street level dealing so the Public spaces are free for the use of all not the minority of dealers and there customers.

I'd go along with this.

likesfish said:
I'm sorry drug problomatic drug users same as street drinkers are the problem.

No, they are a symptom.

likesfish said:
Once a community can use its public spaces and local amenties without fear then I'll consider working with user groups. in my limited experiance the sort of person who attends a user group is not the smae character whose mugging old people for there next fix :(

The point is that people attending user groups will have been there, some of them wil have been the street dealers, street drinkers, muggers, burglars, beggars etc. They will be able to tell you what might work, what might not, be able to give you an insight into that life maybe even some intel into who the big fish are etc.
 
Blagsta said:
You're right here - its not the street dealers who are (neccesarily the scum bags. Its the ones further up, driving the posh cars, wearing the expensive suits watches. They're the scum.
You think that if a dealer becomes very successful at his illicit business, he's scum, but if the dealer is only moderately successful or remains poor, he's not scum. Have I understood you correctly?

It doesn't really help anyone to call the dealers (big or small) scum, but I think they are unscrupulous, ruthless and very harmful.

A friend of mine has a son who has been a junkie for many years. His unkind, selfish, thoughtless, criminal, anti-social behaviour has broken her heart. I also know people who have been on the receiving end of appalling thuggery and robbery from crack-heads. So I loathe the crack/smack trade. I would like it to be suppressed... though that's easier said than done.

The original question on the thread was whether it was 'left-wing' to tolerate crack dealers. The Cuban regime, which is generally seen as left-wing, has a very illiberal approach to drug dealers, while the legalise-all-drugs line fits perfectly with right-wing 'libertarianism' (and was briefly advocated by the Federation of Conservative Students in their ultra days).
 
JHE said:
You think that if a dealer becomes very successful at his illicit business, he's scum, but if the dealer is only moderately successful or remains poor, he's not scum. Have I understood you correctly?

No. The point is that small time/street dealers are often doing it to support a habit. The big time ones aren't usually - its a business to them.
 
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