Is it left wing to tolerate crack dealers?

[poster342002]

For thoughtful articles on drug dealing and working calss areas there is one on the national iWCA site and a good discussion based around Dublin on the Urban P&P.

Happy to link them again, as the original post linking to them was ages back in the thread!

IWCA article on drug dealing and working class areas:

http://www.iwca.info/cutedge/ce0004.htm

IWCA article on crime in general and how it affects the weorking class:

http://www.iwca.info/cutedge/ce0002.htm

For what it's worth, I think these are the best analysis I've read on the problem so far.

What do others here think of them? Blagsta? William Of Walthworth?

 

[Blagsta]

I haven't read the 2nd article, but the first is OKish, however it presents a very simplstic view of drug users and the reasons why people use and abuse drugs. Painting addiction as a "failure of individual subjectivity." and calling it a "lifestyle option" is ridiculous. Solely blaming the individual and ignoring the social circumstances is the sort of thing that Thatcher advocated and the left should be very wary of. It also, IMO, betrays another failure of left wing politics and politics in general - namely the inability and unwillingness to account for the emotional, the pyschological, the unconscious, all that stuff that motivates and influences people day to day that isn't the material and economic.

 

[kyser_soze]

That second article could easily appear in the op-ed sections of the Telegraph...and would no doubt be rounded on as 'right wing' and 'oppressive', particularly the bits about low level anti-social behaviour and 'the youth' by a great many people on Urban.

Can't say I disagree with much of it tho - very well thought out piece, altho when he talks about policing, could it be that the OB choose to give a lower level of priority to w/c estates/communities precisely because they almost inevitably come in for criticism for being 'oppressive' when they do try and act on anti-social people? Let's take for example the OB targeting tagging, littering and other forms of petty vandalism using the same zero tolerance approach used in NY which DID see communities gaining in strength and self-respect - were that approach to be used on an estate in London or the UK the immediate response would be to shout racists and fascists.

 

[Jo/Joe]

Who should do that though jo?

In the absence of any other mechanism the state should obviously play a large role. Who or what else is going to do anything in the short term?

 

[phildwyer]

not bothered about that
want to be able to walk my own street in safety if the police won't do there job then me and my mates will

Really? How?

 

[phildwyer]

Think the point likefish is trying to make (tell me if I'm wrong... ) is that it's very easy to be all understanding about the causes of dealing and everything else as long as it's some other poor sod who has to put up with the consequences.

Someone or other mentioned up thread living in the same street as a crackhouse for eight months until the police closed it down. Now imagine you live in the same street as a crackhouse and have done for a long while, the police aren't interested in closing it down (it's contained after all and the dealers give them information or whatever other crappy reason they trot out) and you don't have the option to move. Tell me you'd still feel so concerned about people being mean to the crack dealers then...

Well as a matter of fact, I *do* live on the same street as a crackhouse. It bothers me not a jot. I reckon the people here getting most het up about evil dealers are the ones with least experience of them. I'd also repeat that those who take illegal drugs themselves have no right to complain about dealers of illegal drugs, because they are themselves contributing to the demand that sustains the trade. As for the dealers themselves, at street level they are almost all users too (and most addicts deal at least a little), so the moral distinction between dealers and users is bollocks too. Since I believe all drugs should be legal, I do not think dealers should be harrassed. Makes sense, no? Only someone who never takes illegal drugs and believes in their prohibition can consistantly espouse any other position. Incidentally, most of the guys on Coldharbour Lane who seem to annoy so many of you so much are *not* dealers at all, but conmen. Did that ever occur to you?

 

[Jo/Joe]

Again phil, you are thinking only of yourself and not about other members of society that may not want to encounter dealing, drug use, paraphanalia or it's related effects on crime. Liberalisation may be a better solution, but that is a different matter altogether, it doesn't imply acceptance of the issues I mention.

 

[Blagsta]

The question then is how we tackle it. If people on here were advocating getting service user groups involved, drug user forums, organisations like the Methadone Alliance etc, while also being willing to address within their community issues around other activities for young people, training opportunities, work opportunities, housing issues etc, then I might be more inclined to take them seriously. Instead we get sub-Charles Bronson fantasies from people such as likesfish.
Drug use/abuse and addiction is a complex area, encompassing all areas of life and the morals/ethics are not as clear cut as some would like to believe.

 

[Jo/Joe]

The 'wiping the streets clean' approach is a load of simplistic bollocks, it saves having to think which is what this issue needs. I think the answer is multistranded and involves responsibility on the part of lost of parties, not just users. Like you say blagsta, facilities for the young people is part of it (society providing for its young, what a concept!). If we can't show people that we give a shit about them we don't deserve their respect.

 

[phildwyer]

Instead we get sub-Charles Bronson fantasies from people such as likesfish.

Likesfish is the worst, but he's not the only one. Raising this issue is like picking up a rock in your garden--you get to see all the disgusting stuff that is normally hidden. Its an excuse for people to vent their authoritarian, sadistic and--above all--racist tendencies, without (they assume) paying a price for it. You people who think crack dealers are subhuman--I wonder how many of you have ever met one? I've known two people who I'd count as friends who've been convicted of selling crack, and both of them were thoroughly decent, honest human beings. They both got considerable amounts of jail-time too, thanks to drug warriors like some people on here. There's just so much hypocrisy: people who've admited here to using coke going on about how dealers should be persecuted. You know what? If you've ever shared your coke with a friend then, in the eyes of the law, you are *exactly* the same as the crack dealers who you consider "scum." What does that make you, then?

 

[Sue]

phildwyer, you've no problems at all living near a crack house and some of your best friends are crack dealers? Well that's all rather..atypical shall we say.

As to your assertion that not liking crack dealers is 'racist' -- FFS.

 

[tobyjug]

I've known two people who I'd count as friends who've been convicted of selling crack, and both of them were thoroughly decent, honest human beings.

Decent human beings? You must be completely stupid given how much crime crack causes. Decent human being and drug dealer just cannot happen in the same person. One has to have no social conscience whatsoever to be a drug dealer.

 

[LLETSA]

phildwyer, you've no problems at all living near a crack house and some of your best friends are crack dealers? Well that's all rather..atypical shall we say.

As to your assertion that not liking crack dealers is 'racist' -- FFS.

Not far from where I live there is a dealer (or several) living in a flat above one of the local shops. All sorts of low life hangs around on the street outside night and day. To say that many local residents, particularly the elderly, do not find this situation intimidating, particularly as the only shop which is open in the evening is on the same block, is simply blinkered. Low -level dealing like this is a problem up and down the country.

The issue has been raised at the local community forum. The main defenders of the 'rights' of the dealers and their customers are people who are, it seems, just like phildwyer. In other words they cannot put themselves in the place of people who are not exactly like themselves.

Message for phil: as far as I'm aware, none of the dealers profits have been ploughed back into the community. Although I suppose we can live in hope.

 

[Ryazan]

its just ime, people who don't give a fuck about people being damaged by society and claim to be acting in the interests of "the working class" tend to be middle class wankers playing at being class warriors

Middle class people who take drugs recreationally, but don't live in an area where there is a lot of people addicted to hard substances, and don't recognise the realities faced by people (usually working class) in these areas. They will not recognise that what isn't part of their dangerous and cool experience is worth bothering about, and will see that what ever might harm their cushioned view or access to drugs from working class dealers is threatened with, it will mean that concern from residents on estates will in indeed seem antagonisitc to them and the kind of fun they want. They don't have to live near a crack house. They just visit nearby. To collect their drugs, before fucking off again.

 

[LLETSA]

its just ime, people who don't give a fuck about people being damaged by society and claim to be acting in the interests of "the working class" tend to be middle class wankers playing at being class warriors

Wrong. The people who most often take the hardest line on drugs (even if they don't feel confident about acting on it) are those who could so easily have succumbed to the 'damage' inflicted on them by society but chose not to adopt a life of preying on your own community that hard drug use inevitably involves to one degree or another.

 

[Blagsta]

Decent human beings? You must be completely stupid given how much crime crack causes. Decent human being and drug dealer just cannot happen in the same person. One has to have no social conscience whatsoever to be a drug dealer.

Oh fuck off toby.

 

[Blagsta]

Wrong. The people who most often take the hardest line on drugs (even if they don't feel confident about acting on it) are those who could so easily have succumbed to the 'damage' inflicted on them by society but chose not to adopt a life of preying on your own community that hard drug use inevitably involves to one degree or another.

Utter bollocks ime.

 

[Blagsta]

Middle class people who take drugs recreationally, but don't live in an area where there is a lot of people addicted to hard substances, and don't recognise the realities faced by people (usually working class) in these areas. They will not recognise that what isn't part of their dangerous and cool experience is worth bothering about, and will see that what ever might harm their cushioned view or access to drugs from working class dealers is threatened with, it will mean that concern from residents on estates will in indeed seem antagonisitc to them and the kind of fun they want. They don't have to live near a crack house. They just visit nearby. To collect their drugs, before fucking off again.

What are you on about? While I recognise the stereotpye and agree it has a lot of basis in reality, I'm not sure what it has to do with my point.

 

[Ryazan]

It had nothing to do with your point in terms of being aligned with it. I was disagreeing with you.

 

[TeeJay]

...Since I believe all drugs should be legal, I do not think dealers should be harrassed. Makes sense, no? Only someone who never takes illegal drugs and believes in their prohibition can consistantly espouse any other position...

You don't have to be against drugs to be annoyed by the behaviour of dealers and users. Someone could be in favour of legalising drugs (for example sale through cannabis cafes, pharmacies and/or health clinics) but still want to get dealers off Coldharbour Lane because of their behaviour, and also be annoyed about needles left in parks, violence and property crime associated with current drug use.

 

[cathal marcs]

I for one cant believe some folk here are condemning those who are concerned about the effects of social parasites like crack dealers get trivialised as being 'sub-Charles Bronson's' is that not quite a simplistic analysis also?

I think folk who fail some sort the 'liberal tolerance test' or the more disgusting 'its sooo arty' such as likefish are fully aware of the social-economic factor that can influence drug use and would love to see folk getting the necessary treatment needed to combat hard drug addiction. But if the state is not providing adequate facilities and don’t look likely to you can’t blame people for taking direct action and supporting those that do.

 

[phildwyer]

All the problems people here are mentioning are caused by the fact that drug use and dealing are illegal. They should all be legalized, as has been done in many countries already. Prohibition does not prevent drug use, it merely renders it sordid and criminal. I can tell that some people here are genuinely well-meaning and concerned for the welfare of communities, but many others (as usual) simply get a quasi-sexual thrill from fantasizing about violence against "scum." I suspect that these people are completely ignorant of drug users and dealers. There is no doubt that such people are infinitely worse, morally, than the dealers themselves, or that they represent a far greater threat to decent society. I'd feel a lot safer living next door to a crackhouse than to Likesfish, that's for sure.

 

[phildwyer]

Wrong. The people who most often take the hardest line on drugs (even if they don't feel confident about acting on it) are those who could so easily have succumbed to the 'damage' inflicted on them by society but chose not to adopt a life of preying on your own community that hard drug use inevitably involves to one degree or another.

Absolute rubbish. You have no idea what you're talking about. The people who take the "hardest" line on drugs are facist authoritarians and weird perverts. In a previous post, I compared blaming the dealers for the drugs problem to the USA blaming Colombia for *its* drugs problem. If there was no demand, there'd be no supply. In many cases, its the *users* who are exploiting the *dealers.* A middle-class, recreational user of cocaine will typically experience no legal or social repercussions. The dealer who sells him his gear will typically have few other choices or resources, and will face many years in jail if detected.

 

[phildwyer]

You don't have to be against drugs to be annoyed by the behaviour of dealers and users. Someone could be in favour of legalising drugs (for example sale through cannabis cafes, pharmacies and/or health clinics) but still want to get dealers off Coldharbour Lane because of their behaviour, and also be annoyed about needles left in parks, violence and property crime associated with current drug use.

If you are unable to see that to advocate legalization of drugs while also calling for greater police persecution of drug dealers is a moral and logical paradox, there is little hope for you.

 

[phildwyer]

Message for phil: as far as I'm aware, none of the dealers profits have been ploughed back into the community. Although I suppose we can live in hope.

The point you seem unable to grasp is that dealers are *members* of the community. They're not aliens from outer space, even if some of them are a different colour from you.

 

[nino_savatte]

Absolute rubbish. You have no idea what you're talking about. The people who take the "hardest" line on drugs are facist authoritarians and weird perverts. In a previous post, I compared blaming the dealers for the drugs problem to the USA blaming Colombia for *its* drugs problem. If there was no demand, there'd be no supply. In many cases, its the *users* who are exploiting the *dealers.* A middle-class, recreational user of cocaine will typically experience no legal or social repercussions. The dealer who sells him his gear will typically have few other choices or resources, and will face many years in jail if detected.

Well actually, the people who take the hardest moral line are the media, who influence decisions higher up. You are familiar with the phrase "moral panic"?

 

[phildwyer]

Well actually, the people who take the hardest moral line are the media, who influence decisions higher up. You are familiar with the phrase "moral panic"?

I am, Nino, and for once you're making sense. Now, the interesting question is *why* the media want to stir up such a degree of frenzy that even people on an *anarchist* message board (FFS) are opnly advocating snitching to the police and even (FFS) vigilante action against delears.

 

[nino_savatte]

I am, Nino, and for once you're making sense. Now, the interesting question is *why* the media want to stir up such a degree of frenzy that even people on an *anarchist* message board (FFS) are opnly advocating snitching to the police and even (FFS) vigilante action against delears.

"For once"? I always make sense but I don't always think that I'm right.

 

[phildwyer]

"For once"? I always make sense but I don't always think that I'm right.

Nor do I.

 

[likesfish]

not terribly bothered about recreational users middle class or otherwise
when they stop being recreational users and become addicts diffrent matter altogether .
while legilisation would remove the problem form the courts still left with the problems of addiction while smack could be controlled and an addict could function and even get on with there life.
not sure same thing could be said for crack or coke
but class a dealers may be part of the community but the problems they bring with them addicts,turf wars etc etc.
bit like prostituation couple of girls in a flat above a shop on a busy street not exactly bothering anyone.
load of street walkers on a residential strett that the local plod have decided is a tolerance zone another matter altogether