Is it left wing to tolerate crack dealers?

[Sue]

Incidentally, I don't really give a flying fuck about this, it's just an interesting argument...

So if you were unfortunate enough to live next door to a crack den, do you think you would 'give a flying fuck'..?

 

[bristol_citizen]

it's more having travelled a lot and mixed with a wider social circle than most people here.

Really?

 

[kyser_soze]

I have lived next door to a crack den - there was one at the end of my road for about 8 months until the OB closed it down and while they were there pretty much the whole street got burglarised, including my own.

I was more talking about the disucssion on the thread in case anyone thouht I was taking it seriously...

 

[kyser_soze]

Really?

Well I don't know, but form the comments made about the rich I doubt that many people here have met some of the people I have - or would want to - altho they've probably spent time with many poor people both living and working (I've done the living bit and my UK social circle encompasses a pretty fucking diverse collection of people) I've travelled extensively througout the Northern Hemisphere (Southern is the next big project) and seen a lot in my life.

I dunno, it strikes me that some urbanites don't have wide social experience of dealing with different people outside of 'rich=wankers and I won't have naything to do with them' to 'poor=my kinda people who are almost entirely blameless for everything in their lives cos it's all the fault of the rich'

 

[Crispy]

The way I see it (in simple terms) is:

The prohibition of drugs is the prime cause of most of the crime associated with them.
Drug dealing can seem to offer a 'short cut' out of poverty (as can drug abuse)
Working class areas are traditionally ignored / badly policed for the obvious political reasons.
Therefore, drugs cause problems, and those problems are more prevelant in w/c areas.

For the record, I believe that the foundation of any civilisation is the impartial rule of law, agreed on by all. Delegating the law to people who have no checks against them (wether they be police forces or self-governing communities) leaves the door open for tyranny.

 

[bristol_citizen]

I doubt that many people here have met some of the people I have

And how does having met a few c-list celebs or those absurd members of minor European royalty that appear on about page 48 of Hello or whoever it is you think is sooooo important and above the rest of us make you better able to comment on crack dealing?
Being on speaking terms with a few toffs doesn't give you improved intellectual powers y'know.

 

[kyser_soze]

And how does having met a few c-list celebs or those absurd members of minor European royalty that appear on about page 48 of Hello or whoever it is you think is sooooo important and above the rest of us make you better able to comment on crack dealing?
Being on speaking terms with a few toffs doesn't give you improved intellectual powers y'know.

I wasn't saying that - what I was saying is that I've seen a shitload of the world, rich and poor, and that maybe I've seen a little bit more of it than other people. Not 'I've met loads of minor Euro-royals and C-list celebs.'

Altho if the idea of travelling and seeing and socialising with both the rich and poor is a bit difficult for you to grasp, it's because I try not to prejudge people based on their wealth.

And if you'd bothered reading the rest of my point, you'd have realised these things, and also that I was pointing out that it's my experience of seeing life at both ends of the spectrum in lots of different cultures and countries that has informed the way I see the world.

 

[pk]

And how does having met a few c-list celebs or those absurd members of minor European royalty that appear on about page 48 of Hello or whoever it is you think is sooooo important and above the rest of us make you better able to comment on crack dealing?
Being on speaking terms with a few toffs doesn't give you improved intellectual powers y'know.

I think in saying that, you highlight the accuracy of Kyser's post like a beacon of flame in the night sky somewhere near Hemel Hempstead mate.

 

[bristol_citizen]

I wasn't saying that - what I was saying is that I've seen a shitload of the world, rich and poor, and that maybe I've seen a little bit more of it than other people. Not 'I've met loads of minor Euro-royals and C-list celebs.'

Altho if the idea of travelling and seeing and socialising with both the rich and poor is a bit difficult for you to grasp, it's because I try not to prejudge people based on their wealth.

And if you'd bothered reading the rest of my point, you'd have realised these things, and also that I was pointing out that it's my experience of seeing life at both ends of the spectrum in lots of different cultures and countries that has informed the way I see the world.

You're a Tory then?

 

[kyser_soze]

You're a Tory then?

Since you find it difficult to understand that it's possible to communicate and be around people outside your own class group you probably won't understand that I'm neither right nor left - parts of what I think you'd probably consider right wing, parts of which are left wing, parts of which are believed in by those on the left and right but in different ways and for different reasons.

 

[TeeJay]

Perhaps you'd like to give me an example of one of these "witch hunts" (and please don't pull out that tired old rumour about the paediatrician, it's a load of bollocks).

They are called lynch mobs and they have a long and dishonourable history.

 

[editor]

I dunno, it strikes me that some urbanites don't have wide social experience of dealing with different people outside of 'rich=wankers and I won't have naything to do with them' to 'poor=my kinda people who are almost entirely blameless for everything in their lives cos it's all the fault of the rich'

You do realise you're talking to a Fellow Of the Royal Society of Arts here?!

 

[TeeJay]

well if your on a shitty council estate with crack dealers and all the crap that goes with them and the police won't deal with it.
don't you think proposing to set up a community clay pigeon shooting club which would entail a largish group of residents having access to shotguns and ammuntition would light a massive fire under the local council and police force to actually do something about the problems facing the estate before the residents do
If I was a local copper the last thing I'd want to see is a large group of residents attemting to aquire firearms legally with media support tabloids would love it.
notice I'm not saving actually get the weapons just make the powers that be realize the shit has hit the fan

Your going to be telling us how wonderful it is to live in Northern Ireland next, due to all these wonderful "community justice" groups they have there.

 

[kyser_soze]

You do realise you're talking to a Fellow Of the Royal Society of Arts here?!

You or Bristol Citizen?



I know there are also a large number of urbanites who have travelled and seen much of the joy and horror of the world - altho I don't think Bristol Citizen is one of them.

 

[phildwyer]

I know there are also a large number of urbanites who have travelled and seen much of the joy and horror of the world - altho I don't think Bristol Citizen is one of them.

A while ago we had a competition on the Travel board to see who had visited the most countries. I came in second, beaten out by Old Stoic, who was immediately banned (for an unrelated offence). So by your criteria I reckon I'm the best qualified to speak on this subject, and my verdict is: let the dealers alone. Actually, in the USA, the crack epidemic pretty much took care of itself in the end, because people who use crack regularly will soon die.

 

[bristol_citizen]

Since you find it difficult to understand that it's possible to communicate and be around people outside your own class group you probably won't understand that I'm neither right nor left - parts of what I think you'd probably consider right wing, parts of which are left wing, parts of which are believed in by those on the left and right but in different ways and for different reasons.

The reason I asked is because the use of common sense and experience in forming a political outlook allied to a fundamentally negative view of human nature has underpinned Tory philosophy for over 150 years.
The obssession with social status does you no favours either.

 

[Crispy]

Actually, in the USA, the crack epidemic pretty much took care of itself in the end, because people who use crack regularly will soon die.

Malthist!

 

[kyser_soze]

let the dealers alone. Actually, in the USA, the crack epidemic pretty much took care of itself in the end, because people who use crack regularly will soon die.

I remember reading an interview with a medic at a NY hospital at the height of the 80s crack epidemic who pretty much said the same thing...

 

[kyser_soze]

The reason I asked is because the use of common sense and experience in forming a political outlook allied to a fundamentally negative view of human nature has underpinned Tory philosophy for over 150 years.
The obssession with social status does you no favours either.

*I'm* obsessed with social status?

How do you work that one out? Because I've hung around with rich people? And a bit rich given the obsession about loving or being w/c a lot of people on Urban have. At least I can accurately claim to have come from a w/c background.

And again, you're making a huge number of assumptions - I balance that view of humans behaving like idiots in large groups with the experience that in small groups (and Ironically in super-massive groups) humans are exceptionally compassionate creatures, far more so than many other mammals. We just have the downside of seeming to combine elements of so many other animals speices into one package!! I also don't rely on common sense and experience, I rely on a combination of reading, experience and thinking to say what I say.

So far you have been wrong on pretty much every count of what I've said, who I am and what I've done in my life.

 

[bristol_citizen]

So far you have been wrong on pretty much every count of what I've said, who I am and what I've done in my life.

Touché!

 

[Jo/Joe]

Any perception of any community in the world today has to be placed in a context of time, locality, national economy, global economy, etc, etc. It is not possible to make absolute judgements about humans as a whole based on what is, historically a very limited experience. Humans can be brutal, idiotic,etc , but they are also capable of much more. We are fundamentally social beings, language, consciousness and culture are testament to that. I think you're far too cynical ky, while it's also easy, granted, to be idealistic and naive on this subject.

Would crack dealers have been allowed to operate in w/c communities 50-100 years ago?

Is letting crack users to die another example of ID (in a system) phil?

 

[phildwyer]

Would crack dealers have been allowed to operate in w/c communities 50-100 years ago?

Yes. At least, there was a lot of cocaine being used a century ago, and perfectly legal too. But I've often thought that a better analogy to the crack epidemic was the British Gin Craze of the eighteenth century, which had similarly devastating social and health effects. And, importantly, the solution was *not* to make gin illegal, still less to undertake vigilante justice against the gin dealers who stood--with mobile stills mounted on wheelbarrows--on every street corner.

 

[Jo/Joe]

The problems presented by crack use would not have been tolerated in many communities and you know it.

 

[phildwyer]

The problems presented by crack use would not have been tolerated in many communities and you know it.

Read up on the Gin Craze--much worse than crack, and tolerated for decades.

 

[bristol_citizen]

Read up on the Gin Craze--much worse than crack, and tolerated for decades.

... By an oligarchy, pretty much comparable to a far-right government today.

 

[Jo/Joe]

Read up on the Gin Craze--much worse than crack, and tolerated for decades.

Possibly, but before the time period I suggested.

 

[phildwyer]

Possibly, but before the time period I suggested.

Still not too long ago though. And the important point to note is that the solution was *not* prohibition, but regulation...

 

[Sue]

I can't believe people on here are saying that crack dealers should be tolerated and arguing that it would be deterimental to communities to not tolerate them.

 

[poster342002]

I can't believe people on here are saying that crack dealers should be tolerated and arguing that it would be deterimental to communities to not tolerate them.

Quite. Maybe if they tried asking those communities afflicted by crack dealers what they thought, they might change their mind. No, hang on, they'd probably just insist they were right and everyone else was wrong.

This is probably a microcosm of what happens in real life: communities get sick of crack dealers and demand something is done. Then the "we know best" brigade steps in and counter-argues that the problem is "more complex than that, needing long-term social change", which becomes an arguemnt for doing nothing in the meantime. As the "social change" bit is currently pie-in-the-sky, this amounts to insisting that communites just put up and shut up with the problem.

 

[lewislewis]

All drug dealers should be jailed unmercifully because of what they do to vulnerable working class people, drugs are disgusting and people that take them are in my experience not good people. I'm very sympathetic to those who are drawn into it (if they're from deprived backgrounds), unless they're robbing my nan to feed their habit. Unforunately a significant amount of druggies are in fact from the upper reaches of society, just as valuable to the dealers as the kids on working-class estates (the Dave Cameron/Kate Moss brigade).

In the south Wales Valleys drugs (especially heroin) have basically finished off what Thatcher started, the total destruction of the social, cultural and economic life of a substantial urban area comprising several hundred thousands of people. The only thing left in the Valleys that survived was the community spirit where families know each other, stay in touch and look out for each other, which i'm sure also exists in working-class areas (especially coalfield areas) elsewhere in the UK and Europe.

In the past I have drifted towards decriminalisation as a way of getting rid of the dealers, but I can no longer argue in favour of this idea. I think I just have a personal aversion to it now, rather than anything to do with being 'left-wing' or not.