Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[HoratioCuthbert]

This is what he says. As a British person with direct personal involvement that is how I read it.

He doesn’t say you should be dismissed, does he? he’s trying to engage with the rest of the vote in a more meaningful way than saying they all voted how they did primarily due to racism.

 

[Gramsci]

He doesn’t say you should be dismissed, does he? he’s trying to engage with the rest of the vote in a more meaningful way than saying they all voted how they did primarily due to racism.

In the circles I live in "direct personal involvement" is common. His views on this being a minority position does not reflect my life. I live in Lambeth ( Brixton) which had one of the highest remain votes.

 

[andysays]

In the circles I live in "direct personal involvement" is common. His views on this being a minority position does not reflect my life. I live in Lambeth ( Brixton) which had one of the highest remain votes.

Claims of 'direct personal involvement' look to me like another attempt to dismiss and devalue the opinions of people who disagree with you.

We all have direct personal involvement in society and in Brexit, whether or not we have friends or relations from other parts of the EU or the rest of the world (and most of us do, BTW, you're not special in that regard) and whether we voted to remain or to leave, or whether we voted at all.

 

[philosophical]

NOT SAFE FOR WORK

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Please don’t ruin Stewart Lee for me as well.

 

[Pickman's model]

Please don’t ruin Stewart Lee for me as well.

(((HoratioCuthbert)))

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

In the circles I live in "direct personal involvement" is common. His views on this being a minority position does not reflect my life. I live in Lambeth ( Brixton) which had one of the highest remain votes.

Maybe he’s not worded it very well, but I don’t think saying fuck you Gramsci and yer ilk was the general thrust of his craic. But I’ve said that already so I’ll weeesht, I work in care so as you can imagine work/have worked with hunners of EU nationals.

 

[kabbes]

NOT SAFE FOR WORK

You know he’s being ironic about metropolitan liberal elite characters like himself that make those kind of statements, right?

 

[DexterTCN]

You know he’s being ironic about metropolitan liberal elite characters like himself that make those kind of statements, right?

Doesn't seem that way. He backs it up with the next bit about the angry letter-writer.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You know he’s being ironic about metropolitan liberal elite characters like himself that make those kind of statements, right?

No he's not.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

He’s really not. He’d also lose most of his audience if he really got stuck in there let’s face it.

 

[kabbes]

Having been to see that show live twice, I can promise you he is. He simultaneously means it but also sends himself up for meaning it.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Having been to see that show live twice, I can promise you he is. He simultaneously means it but also sends himself up for meaning it.

Oh I can see he’s doing both, but not really impressed at his half hearted attempt at the latter. Yeah I’ve not seen the whole show but I’ve seen lots of bits. As I’ve seen him live and he’s one of my favourite comedians, I think I’ll sit this next year or so out ha!


ETA: I’m aware that contradicts my last post, I just meant he reeeally means it!

 

[kabbes]

Oh I can see he’s doing both, but not really impressed at his half hearted attempt at the latter. Yeah I’ve not seen the whole show but I’ve seen lots of bits. As I’ve seen him live and he’s one of my favourite comedians, I think I’ll sit this next year or so out ha!


ETA: I’m aware that contradicts my last post, I just meant he reeeally means it!

You have to see the whole show. That’s how Stewart Lee works — his show is an entity entire unto itself, not a series of “bits”. It all links together around a theme. If you haven’t seen it all, you simply haven’t seen it.

 

[philosophical]

You know he’s being ironic about metropolitan liberal elite characters like himself that make those kind of statements, right?

I know he made me laugh.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

You have to see the whole show. That’s how Stewart Lee works — his show is an entity entire unto itself, not a series of “bits”. It all links together around a theme. If you haven’t seen it all, you simply haven’t seen it.

Can you promise me he’s not going to really piss me off Kabbes, though, can you? That’s my concern. It’s pure legitimate!

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I know it’s not a series of bits, I saw the pear cider shit LIVE man

 

[kabbes]

Can you promise me he’s not going to really piss me off Kabbes, though, can you? That’s my concern. It’s pure legitimate!

He pisses everyone off. He’d be disappointed any other way.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I know he made me laugh.

This fills me with hope, for it may be the case that your year long Irish Border skit has a punchline but you’re such a trooper you won’t drop it until we’ve all nearly died!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You have to see the whole show. That’s how Stewart Lee works — his show is an entity entire unto itself, not a series of “bits”. It all links together around a theme. If you haven’t seen it all, you simply haven’t seen it.

Fair enough. It is true enough that his shows are wholes.

 

[Pickman's model]

This fills me with hope, for it may be the case that your year long Irish Border skit has a punchline but you’re such a trooper you won’t drop it until we’ve all nearly died!

He's a super trouper

 

[gosub]

NOT SAFE FOR WORK

I last met that man the night I split from my wife (I was the bloke with piss on his trousers).[Divorce pending} Conversations about differences between owning and renting in the particular area of London he (and a mutual friend lives in) ensued. As to Damo I still remember the Bovinus gig at thr Railway Winchester.

 

[redsquirrel]

The way I read it was that I'm in a minority so can be dismissed. In his view. Be a British person who is one of those who have "direct personal involvement."

With respect, like HC I think your reading of this piece is miles off.

The whole focus of the piece is on the Labour party position and specifically, in the in the paragraph you've quoted, the electoral effect of the LPs position.

Wren-Lewis's last point - empathy for EU migrants - probably counts a lot for a small number of people with direct personal involvement or a strong sense of ethical obligation, but it isn't a priority for most voters for whom empathy with Latvians is no more salient than empathy with Laotians. This doesn't make them xenophobic or callous, it merely reflects their personal circumstances and their mental ranking of the factors that will determine their vote. Many people are unhappy with the anticipated future treatment of EU migrants, just as they are unhappy with the proliferation of foodbanks, but it doesn't follow that either would cause them to ignore all other issues when it comes to a general election.

(My emphasis) Timoney is arguing (counter Wren-Lewis) that the LP not taking a more Remain stance (or more specifically calling for a second referendum) is not going to result in the loss of many voters.
As he summarises in the second to last paragraph

The shared premise of Wren-Lewis and Bertram is that support for remaining in the EU is so fundamental to the identity of progressive middle class voters that a large number of them will withdraw their support from Labour unless it commits (at a minimum) to a second referendum with remain on the ballot.

I do not think it's fair to say that Timoney thinks you should be "dismissed", but on a crude electoral level yes Labour probably can "dismiss" the small minority of voters that are such strong "remainers" that they will vote for the LDs or Greens in protest of the LPs stance on the EU (at least in England and Wales, the situation in Scotland is obviously a bit different). From the perspective of electoral calculations your vote (and mine) certainly matters much less than the votes of people in, say, Pudsey or Shipley. We are in safe Labour seats, the same seats (generally) that the die-hard remain vote is concentrated, a minor loss of support in our seats is neither here nor there, whereas if Labour want to win a GE they certainly need to be winning Pudsey and ideally want to take Shipley too.

For all the claims by polticians, the media and LDs that the UK leaving the EU is the greatest issue of our times, it certainly wasn't to most voters at the last GE. For all the daft talk of LDs removing Hoey, she ended up with a swing towards her. Many Labour voters may prefer a more Remain stance from the party but is that going to mean that come election time they don't vote/vote for someone else? IMO only in a small minority of cases, and mostly where the LP can afford it.

 

[butchersapron]

You have to see the whole show. That’s how Stewart Lee works — his show is an entity entire unto itself, not a series of “bits”. It all links together around a theme. If you haven’t seen it all, you simply haven’t seen it.

Seen it? We all live it. It's his/their society and he really should take some responsibility for it. And i don't care how much he loves mark e smith and robert lloyd until he does.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Seen it? We all live it. It's his/their society and he really should take some responsibility for it. And i don't care how much he loves mark e smith and robert lloyd until he does.

Yeaaaah get him telt

 

[Gramsci]

With respect, like HC I think your reading of this piece is miles off.

The whole focus of the piece is on the Labour party position and specifically, in the in the paragraph you've quoted, the electoral effect of the LPs position.
(My emphasis) Timoney is arguing (counter Wren-Lewis) that the LP not taking a more Remain stance (or more specifically calling for a second referendum) is not going to result in the loss of many voters.
As he summarises in the second to last paragraph


I do not think it's fair to say that Timoney thinks you should be "dismissed", but on a crude electoral level yes Labour probably can "dismiss" the small minority of voters that are such strong "remainers" that they will vote for the LDs or Greens in protest of the LPs stance on the EU (at least in England and Wales, the situation in Scotland is obviously a bit different). From the perspective of electoral calculations your vote (and mine) certainly matters much less than the votes of people in, say, Pudsey or Shipley. We are in safe Labour seats, the same seats (generally) that the die-hard remain vote is concentrated, a minor loss of support in our seats is neither here nor there, whereas if Labour want to win a GE they certainly need to be winning Pudsey and ideally want to take Shipley too.

For all the claims by polticians, the media and LDs that the UK leaving the EU is the greatest issue of our times, it certainly wasn't to most voters at the last GE. For all the daft talk of LDs removing Hoey, she ended up with a swing towards her. Many Labour voters may prefer a more Remain stance from the party but is that going to mean that come election time they don't vote/vote for someone else? IMO only in a small minority of cases, and mostly where the LP can afford it.

On the level of crude electoral politics I agree he is right. But its saying the obvious imo.

I catched up on a couple of friends over Christmas. One Corbyn hating Labour party member ( she is basically middle class New Labour) who is strong remainer. She will vote Labour if there is election soon.

My other friend (not that well off) does not like Corbyn over anti semitism but hates New Labour. She is also strong remainer. But will always vote Labour.

I did try to tell them over Xmas there is left view on Brexit but it either falls on deaf ears or looks of incredulity. And yes I know the arguments put forward by Costas Lapiavitsas.

Also Yanis Varoufakis ( criticize Euro and EU but reform and stay My position). Who says and I agree with him a second referendum would be a mistake.

What I got from my friends was that now March deadline is coming up they are getting more angry about outcome. It is becoming issue of our times now that the reality of it is becoming to hit. There is no plan. Both Labour leadership and Tory leadership aren't up to it.

 

[brogdale]

Latest attempt to ratchet up the pressure on potential Tory waverers.

Police reinforcements for Northern Ireland in case of no-deal Brexit

Almost 1,000 police officers from England and Scotland are to begin training for deployment in Northern Ireland in case of disorder from a no-deal Brexit, the Guardian has learned.

 

[Wilf]

Latest attempt to ratchet up the pressure on potential Tory waverers.

Police reinforcements for Northern Ireland in case of no-deal Brexit

'Will you be voting for Mrs May's deal, Mr Twatty Cunt MP?'
- Never! I'm a stout hearted Englishman!
'Ok, will you be voting for Mrs May's deal, Sir Twatty Cunt MP?'
- Erm...

 

[redsquirrel]

What I got from my friends was that now March deadline is coming up they are getting more angry about outcome. It is becoming issue of our times now that the reality of it is becoming to hit.

For some maybe, but I think a lot of people are just fucking bored of the whole thing and want it finished with.

In the YouGov Sunday Times poll last week they asked what people’s emotional response would be to the most plausible outcomes (current deal, no deal, soft Brexit, referendum and no Brexit).
...
When asked about their reaction to the deal or a soft Brexit, most people gave people towards the middle of the scale – they’d be disappointed, or relieved, or wouldn’t mind.

Moreover, IME the people that care most about it are those that are already aligned to a party. Of the two most strident remainers I know one's a LD and the other a LP member, and for all there dislike of Brexit they'd vote exactly the same way whatever.

 

[Ranbay]