Is America burning? (Black Lives Matter protests, civil unrest and riots 2020)

[kabbes]

Still this bizarre ideological belief that just a handful of people can keep up rioting by themselves for literally hundreds of nights on the trot.

 

[existentialist]

Still this bizarre ideological belief that just a handful of people can keep up rioting by themselves for literally hundreds of nights on the trot.

People generally only believe what they REALLY WANT to believe

 

[Pickman's model]

This thread isn't about American foreign policy. If you want to start a thread about that foreighn policy and the disasters America and it's allies have caused, I'll be glad to comment.

no, this is about comparing antifa and the system they oppose, and frankly there is no comparison - the united states government has wrecked more cities and more lives acting in its sleep than antifa will do in a thousand years.

you really are as thick as pigshit

 

[TomUS]

Still this bizarre ideological belief that just a handful of people can keep up rioting by themselves for literally hundreds of nights on the trot.

It's not an ideological belief. It's a fact.

 

[fishfinger]

Alternative fact.

 

[Ax^]

It's not an ideological belief. It's a fact.

you know if you were on a boat we would of shot you by now

 

[kabbes]

It's not an ideological belief. It's a fact.

I’m sure you have evidence of this extraordinary fact. You can provide proof that isn’t just your say-so.

 

[existentialist]

It's not an ideological belief. It's a fact.

You do know that a firmly held belief - no matter how firmly it is held - is not the same as a fact, don't you?

 

[Streathamite]

There is a good deal of wasteful spending. Some hideous rusty sculptures were recently built near me. They cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. The money came from the city arts budget. Art is fine but there are more important needs like the ones you listed. The state could provide funding also. Taxes here are pretty high. I honestly don't know what they do with all the money.

Just my modest suggestion; form action groups, etc with your fellow citizens, and damn well ask them. they (the people ultimately answerable for that expenditure) are scared of your revenge at the ballot box, and IIRC there are laws and regulations enforcing budgetary transparency.

I appreciate as much as anyone that wrestling with municipal officialdom, and local elected officials (councilmen, mayors etc) can feel like the most nightmarish, frustrating, soul-xdestroying experience, but it can be done.
Plus, you have better FoI laws than we do.

 

[Streathamite]

OK, let's say I buy this (and I don't) where does the dough come from?

There is a good deal of wasteful spending. Some hideous rusty sculptures were recently built near me. They cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. The money came from the city arts budget. Art is fine but there are more important needs like the ones you listed. The state could provide funding also. Taxes here are pretty high. I honestly don't know what they do with all the money.
[/QUOTE]
Also, this isn't any proof whatsoever that the police aren't greatly over-funded, over-militarised, over-protected and under-accountable.
Going by all credible estimates (and with the obvious caveat that it's very hard to get a look at the bought ledgers and p\ayroll ledgers of the PRC and North Korea, to name but two), the US spends more per capita on policing than any other nation on earth, in many comparisons substantially more.

 

[TomUS]

no, this is about comparing antifa and the system they oppose, and frankly there is no comparison - the united states government has wrecked more cities and more lives acting in its sleep than antifa will do in a thousand years.

you really are as thick as pigshit

I don't defend the atrocities of the US government any more than I expect you do of the British government. As to antifa, we know what they oppose. Rose city antifa says...

We are opposed to the police, a violent institution of the white supremacist state founded with the explicit intent of patrolling enslaved African people, and today continues to target, harm, and murder Black people, POC, poor people, and other oppressed groups......We stand in solidarity with all those who call for the defunding, disarming, and complete abolition of the police and prison systems.

Absolute lunacy. IOW they don't propose anything except anarchy. That's their "solution" which is no solution at all. Do you agree with their ridiculous statement? If so, what do you propose to replace the current system?

 

[Streathamite]

Those services you list do need more funding. But I wouldn't cut funding from the police to do it. They shouldn't say defunding if they don't mean it. I think they do mean it. They have recently been chanting a slogan calling for the eliminitation of all police and all jails. IOW anarchy. Where I live the police are definitely not over funded. In fact our brilliant city politicians recently cut the police budget. Even before these asshole rioters began their mayhem, the city was about 100 cops short. Crime is going up, the rioters have been running wild, emergency calls to the police go unanswered because they don't have enough manpower to deal with the riots as well as their regular duties, and the police budget is cut. Totally insane. Those who run the city, county and state are criminally negligent IMO.

Tom, the description and definition of 'defunding' has been laid down countless times by BLM, who are probably better-placed to be in the dictionary-chair on this one, than anyone. That's their definition I've quoted, and it's been backed up by everyone from the justice democrats, to the ACLU.
you citing as evidence slogans chanted by a (justifiably-angry) fringe grouping doesn't cut it, as counter-definiton

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't defend the atrocities of the US government any more than I expect you do of the British government. As to antifa, we know what they oppose. Rose city antifa says...

Absolute lunacy. IOW they don't propose anything except anarchy. That's their "solution" which is no solution at all. Do you agree with their ridiculous statement? If so, what do you propose to replace the current system?

I'm not talking about the atrocities of the us govt like Iraq, I'm talking about their everyday routine activity. If you think that's an atrocity - as well you might - you should catch yourself on and stop defending the indefensible

As for anarchy, no government, people working together without hierarchies, don't you think that would be preferable to the current situation where the rich get tax breaks and the poor get teargassed?

 

[Streathamite]

I am opposed to them. They are a very dangerous group. They stand for violence, destruction and anarchy. I've seen the results of their ideology.

oh ffs. Look antifa is just an antifascist poltical umrella philosophy. For lack of a better term. Do you actually realise you're lining up alongside, fascistsd, Nazis, KKKers and other white supremacists,, right now?

 

[Streathamite]

They printed hundreds of billions to sate the bankers a decade or so back. Maybe they could try down the back of the sofa?

Absolutely. If they can afford that. they can afford to invest in communities

 

[Streathamite]

this is the odd bit i don't to take anything away from anyone who has been forced to self isolate

have you been told to shelter?

or are you immunosuppressed


are you just healthy and just working from home


or randomly are you on a street level

and because your job does not allow you to stay at home have you been working?

most likely not

so have never had experience of dealing with anyone who has had personal experience of the Portland police

and the current situation



do you have any understanding over their anger?

or is the buck first

These are incredibly important questions.

Could you please answer them, TomUS?
e2a: OK, you answered them (kinda). I missed that. my bad - apologies to all. But you really need to answer them all, in closer detail.
The fact is, loads of people have had - and documented - some seriously shitty ecperiences with Portland police.
You seem to have distinctly minimal dealings with them.
Plus - and i'm guessing here - you're the sort of middle class, and yes white guy who is probably least likely to get screwed over by them.
Have you had any other dealings with the dibble?
And if not, don't you agree that others are probably better-placed to judge?

 

[TomUS]

I'm not talking about the atrocities of the us govt like Iraq, I'm talking about their everyday routine activity. If you think that's an atrocity - as well you might - you should catch yourself on and stop defending the indefensible

As for anarchy, no government, people working together without hierarchies, don't you think that would be preferable to the current situation where the rich get tax breaks and the poor get teargassed?

I'm not talking about the atrocities of the us govt like Iraq, I'm talking about their everyday routine activity. If you think that's an atrocity - as well you might - you should catch yourself on and stop defending the indefensible

As for anarchy, no government, people working together without hierarchies, don't you think that would be preferable to the current situation where the rich get tax breaks and the poor get teargassed?

An idealistic idea such as that would be wonderful. No government, no hierarchies, no laws so no law enforcement needed, everyone cooperates and gets along with each other. It sounds so nice. But I know of no society in history where such a system has worked. I'm afraid we have to live in the real world and try to achieve what can actually be done.

 

[Streathamite]

My friend who lives in Portland posted this the other day:

I visited downtown Portland today to see if Portland was the cesspool that some people have said it is. And again, all I saw was a beautiful city with some colorful vibes.

Her photos were all of a beautiful city.

Indded, in fact this is where TomUS's posts really confuse me.
Y'see, all of my readings on the sbject tell me that the protests (and, yes, sporadic accompanying disturbances) cover 3-4 blocks at most.
That's a tiny slice of a city of 650,000+ people and c. 375 sq km. It really, really gives the lie to the lurid picture TomUS is painting of a whole city aflame, very night.

 

[TomUS]

oh ffs. Look antifa is just an antifascist poltical umrella philosophy. For lack of a better term. Do you actually realise you're lining up alongside, fascistsd, Nazis, KKKers and other white supremacists,, right now?

You really think opposing anarchy is the same as supporting fascism? I don't.

 

[Streathamite]

It's not an ideological belief. It's a fact.

It really isn't. It's a belief, for which you have given no spuporting evidence beyond personal anecdote.
Whatever else that is, it's not a 'fact'.

 

[Streathamite]

You really think opposing anarchy is the same as supporting fascism? I don't.

You've just totally misread what 'antifa' means, globally.
It's antifascism, pure and simply.
I am a socialist - I have worked with antifa on more than a few occasions. I don't recall 'promoting anarchy' on any of them.
You're simply buying, uncritically, and hook, line and sinker, into the alt-right propaganda narrative

 

[TomUS]

Indded, in fact this is where TomUS's posts really confuse me.
Y'see, all of my readings on the sbject tell me that the protests (and, yes, sporadic accompanying disturbances) cover 3-4 blocks at most.
That's a tiny slice of a city of 650,000+ people and c. 375 sq km. It really, really gives the lie to the lurid picture TomUS is painting of a whole city aflame, very night.

I didn't mean to give the impression that the whole city is aflame. It certainly isn't. Most of it is quite nice and peaceful. The downtown is the heart of the metropolitan area. Much of it has been attacked, vandalized, looted and burned. This is a map of the fires that were set. The area affected is far more than 3-4 blocks.

 

[Pickman's model]

An idealistic idea such as that would be wonderful. No government, no hierarchies, no laws so no law enforcement needed, everyone cooperates and gets along with each other. It sounds so nice. But I know of no society in history where such a system has worked. I'm afraid we have to live in the real world and try to achieve what can actually be done.

Which in your case seems to be to support the most reactionary elements of society.

 

[Pickman's model]

I didn't mean to give the impression that the whole city is aflame. It certainly isn't. Most of it is quite nice and peaceful. The downtown is the heart of the metropolitan area. Much of it has been attacked, vandalized, looted and burned. This is a map of the fires that were set. The area affected is far more than 3-4 blocks.

View attachment 233241

Do you have an actual source for this?

 

[two sheds]

It seems to appear on the gateway pundit which seems totally legit and not far-right conspiracy site at all.

The Gateway Pundit - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Gateway Pundit is an American far-right[3][4] news and opinion website. The website is known for publishing falsehoods and spreading hoaxes.[5]

Surely not?

 

[existentialist]

It seems to appear on the gateway pundit which seems totally legit and not far-right conspiracy site at all.

The Gateway Pundit - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Surely not?

What is it with this whole right-wing "oh, I'm just a naive n00b with a little opinion" schtick? We see it here, and with Martyr1 (to name 2 of the major suspects)...it's almost as if they know their views are going to be found repulsive, so they try to sneak them in under the radar. Not a good look - it just comes across as slippery and disingenuous.

 

[fishfinger]

Most of those fires appear to be dumpsters - see here:

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/article/762541

 

[Pickman's model]

Most of those fires appear to be dumpsters - see here:

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/article/762541

The emperor tomus has no clothes

 

[two sheds]

Yes interested to know where it came from - so far looks like either far right site or portland police site with information about what the actual fires were missed off to mislead people.

 

[frogwoman]

TomUS is a right wing Clinton supporter rather than a republican iirc. Could be wrong on that tho.