Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Is America burning? (Black Lives Matter protests, civil unrest and riots 2020)

existentialist said:
And it worked - the Poll Tax Riots were instrumental in forcing Thatcher to back down (somewhat) on her plans, and were ultimately one of the major reasons why she began to lose her grip on power.
Click to expand...
Agree entirely with every other point made in your otherwise eccellent post, but, in truth, what really did for the poll tax was 18 million simply not paying. The tax simply couldn't be made to work.
And in turn, it was the Tories tanking polling, and Howe's resignation speech which did for Thatcher
 
Pickman's model said:
Why don't you disapprove of cops?
Click to expand...

I think that you need someone there who you can ask for help in situations where violence is a thing.

I would not for a second defend the way that police are organised and I think that the situation in the USA is a particularly egregious example of how badly that our current system has this set up because the cops seem to be contributing to the problems as much as helping with them, but even if everything worked I think that like nurses you would still need people to be around for when people get sick or lost and some of the ways that that manifests itself
 
freakydave said:
Upheaval does not require violence though.

Violence can be justified as a form of defence, and there is a debate about where is line between defence and attack, but I would contend that it is always a failure. It is a failure of our current system that there is a state in place that maintains it's power often through violence, but the solution is not to replace that with another monopoly of violence with different intentions
Click to expand...
You'e missing the point by about a mile. Violence is an innate, inevitable part of the dynamics of change. No great societal or political gains were ever made by simply asking nicely
 
Streathamite said:
Agree entirely with every other point made in your otherwise eccellent post, but, in truth, what really did for the poll tax was 18 million simply not paying. The tax simply couldn't be made to work.
And in turn, it was the Tories tanking polling, and Howe's resignation speech which did for Thatcher
Click to expand...
Hmm, OK, but I do recall a very distinct - and uncharacteristic - nervousness in government in the aftermath of the riots. I remember quite a long article, some time afterwards, when they spoke to various former government officials and MPs, who described how rattled even Thatcher was at what had happened. Maybe I'm over-egging that pudding a little...

And I don't think Howe's resignation, significant as it was, would have dislodged Thatcher, if the bolts hadn't already been loosened a lot - and 18 million people refusing to pay would no doubt have been part of that, too :)

It was a grim time, but also a happy one - after a decade of that evil, unhuman leader, it finally started to look as if we might see the back of her.
 
Streathamite said:
You'e missing the point by about a mile. Violence is an innate, inevitable part of the dynamics of change. No great societal or political gains were ever made by simply asking nicely
Click to expand...
I am beginning to seriously doubt whether freakydave, for all his wide-eyed protestations, is remotely interested in being informed on any of this. He just seems to go off and protest, wide-eyed, about something else before returning and carrying on as if nothing had happened :hmm:.
 
existentialist said:
Hmm, OK, but I do recall a very distinct - and uncharacteristic - nervousness in government in the aftermath of the riots. I remember quite a long article, some time afterwards, when they spoke to various former government officials and MPs, who described how rattled even Thatcher was at what had happened. Maybe I'm over-egging that pudding a little...

And I don't think Howe's resignation, significant as it was, would have dislodged Thatcher, if the bolts hadn't already been loosened a lot - and 18 million people refusing to pay would no doubt have been part of that, too :)

It was a grim time, but also a happy one - after a decade of that evil, unhuman leader, it finally started to look as if we might see the back of her.
Click to expand...
Ok, fair enough, I'd meet you in the middle on both these points. I was in Trafalgar Square that day, and there was definitely a sense of the (metaphorical) statues being toppled.
also, on reflection you were right about Howe. It was probably that speech that finally impelled Heseltine to make his move, but agreed entirely that n one of that would have been possible =if virtually the entire Parliamentary Conservative party weren't completely losing their shit by that stage.
as you say, happy days!:)
 
Streathamite said:
You'e missing the point by about a mile. Violence is an innate, inevitable part of the dynamics of change. No great societal or political gains were ever made by simply asking nicely
Click to expand...

No I am just making my point badly. I disagree with that

I agree that violence has been the driving factor, but I don't see any violence as aspirational in a serious way. I may be horribly misattributing (which isn't even a word, good start) but I am a big fan of the Emma Goldman school of thought how progress is actually about growth not destruction. Violence is a result of us being pretty primitive, but what we should be aiming towards is to creatively find ways to not need all of this bullshit, rather than try to make a benevolent form of violence.
 
freakydave said:
No I am just making my point badly. I disagree with that

I agree that violence has been the driving factor, but I don't see any violence as aspirational in a serious way. I may be horribly misattributing (which isn't even a word, good start) but I am a big fan of the Emma Goldman school of thought how progress is actually about growth not destruction. Violence is a result of us being pretty primitive, but what we should be aiming towards is to creatively find ways to not need all of this bullshit, rather than try to make a benevolent form of violence.
Click to expand...
Jesus fucking Christ.
 
existentialist said:
I am beginning to seriously doubt whether freakydave, for all his wide-eyed protestations, is remotely interested in being informed on any of this. He just seems to go off and protest, wide-eyed, about something else before returning and carrying on as if nothing had happened :hmm:.
Click to expand...

I mean, I am very open that I am not a happy person. I have not read the whole thing.

I have gotten into a few fights on here and usually have learned something and gotten some perspective. I try to be civil when I'm disagreeing, the reason that I act 'wide eyed' is completely a tactic. There is that American guy who everyone seems to hate called martyr and he never seems to be told anything or listened to because he just comes in as if he's already made his mind up. I am an adult so I already have ideas, but I am pretty sure that half of them are wrong because I'm getting new ideas on here
 
freakydave said:
I think that you need someone there who you can ask for help in situations where violence is a thing.

I would not for a second defend the way that police are organised and I think that the situation in the USA is a particularly egregious example of how badly that our current system has this set up because the cops seem to be contributing to the problems as much as helping with them, but even if everything worked I think that like nurses you would still need people to be around for when people get sick or lost and some of the ways that that manifests itself
Click to expand...
So you see someone kneeling on someone else's neck. Are you going to approach a cop to get that resolved?

Your nurse analogy utterly misplaced, you are comparing apples and hand grenades

Any societal good cops do is incidental to their role of maintaining social order, if you've ever tried to report a crime you'll know their duty to investigate isn't extended to people who've had their bike nicked, people who've been mugged or, in many parts of the country, people who've been burgled.
 
existentialist said:
Hmm, OK, but I do recall a very distinct - and uncharacteristic - nervousness in government in the aftermath of the riots. I remember quite a long article, some time afterwards, when they spoke to various former government officials and MPs, who described how rattled even Thatcher was at what had happened. Maybe I'm over-egging that pudding a little...

And I don't think Howe's resignation, significant as it was, would have dislodged Thatcher, if the bolts hadn't already been loosened a lot - and 18 million people refusing to pay would no doubt have been part of that, too :)

It was a grim time, but also a happy one - after a decade of that evil, unhuman leader, it finally started to look as if we might see the back of her.
Click to expand...
Thatcher resigned in nov 90. The major elements of coercion, namely bailiffs and jailings, had barely started in England (I don't think anyone was jailed in England until 91) and the greater number of the liability order hearings were yet to come. So in all honesty non-payment hadn't really been tested by the time she went. So imo you're left with Europe or the riots doing for her and tbh my money's on the riots
 
Pickman's model said:
So you see someone kneeling on someone else's neck. Are you going to approach a cop to get that resolved?

Your nurse analogy utterly misplaced, you are comparing apples and hand grenades

Any societal good cops do is incidental to their role of maintaining social order, if you've ever tried to report a crime you'll know their duty to investigate isn't extended to people who've had their bike nicked, people who've been mugged or, in many parts of the country, people who've been burgled.
Click to expand...

The one time I was violently mugged I did call the cops and they did come and drag the muggers away. I've been on the wrong side of the cops as well through no fault of my own and through my own stupidity and to repeat myself, I agree that the police living under I don't have love for the cops, but there is a function that needs to be carried out by police.

The police murder that you are alluding to in America is just straight out murder. I did actually read a few things about how that was allowed to happen and there are a lot of things that are wrong with that on a lot of levels even within the confines of what capitalist America says that it is. Police in America aren't trained properly and are given responsibilities that are nothing to do with the police.
 
freakydave said:
The one time I was violently mugged I did call the cops and they did come and drag the muggers away. I've been on the wrong side of the cops as well through no fault of my own and through my own stupidity and to repeat myself, I agree that the police living under I don't have love for the cops, but there is a function that needs to be carried out by police.

The police murder that you are alluding to in America is just straight out murder. I did actually read a few things about how that was allowed to happen and there are a lot of things that are wrong with that on a lot of levels even within the confines of what capitalist America says that it is. Police in America aren't trained properly and are given responsibilities that are nothing to do with the police.
Click to expand...
The properly trained police here do it too.
 
freakydave said:
I mean, I am very open that I am not a happy person. I have not read the whole thing.

I have gotten into a few fights on here and usually have learned something and gotten some perspective. I try to be civil when I'm disagreeing, the reason that I act 'wide eyed' is completely a tactic. There is that American guy who everyone seems to hate called martyr and he never seems to be told anything or listened to because he just comes in as if he's already made his mind up. I am an adult so I already have ideas, but I am pretty sure that half of them are wrong because I'm getting new ideas on here
Click to expand...
That's pretty much bullshit, from what I've observed of how you operate on here. These "new ideas" rarely seem to stick, before you're back trotting out the same faux-naif nonsense again. And, just by way of a heads-up, constantly using excuses for your behaviour will very quickly wear extremely thin, whether it's being pissed or "not being happy". Those things might explain to a degree why you post the way you do, but they aren't a free pass, and Urban - for all its generosity - will only cut you slack for so long.

belboid's post of a short while ago might be a little eye-opener for you: what he says is DEFINITELY the way you are coming across, as someone who wants to sabotage discussion while pretending to "learn" from it. And down that road lies a fairly regular diet of "fuck off, freakydave" posts. Just so you know what's coming...

And now I think I shall take belboid's advice.
 
freakydave said:
No I am just making my point badly. I disagree with that

I agree that violence has been the driving factor, but I don't see any violence as aspirational in a serious way. I may be horribly misattributing (which isn't even a word, good start) but I am a big fan of the Emma Goldman school of thought how progress is actually about growth not destruction. Violence is a result of us being pretty primitive, but what we should be aiming towards is to creatively find ways to not need all of this bullshit, rather than try to make a benevolent form of violence.
Click to expand...

Nobody is saying that violence is aspirational.
 
existentialist said:
That's pretty much bullshit, from what I've observed of how you operate on here. These "new ideas" rarely seem to stick, before you're back trotting out the same faux-naif nonsense again. And, just by way of a heads-up, constantly using excuses for your behaviour will very quickly wear extremely thin, whether it's being pissed or "not being happy". Those things might explain to a degree why you post the way you do, but they aren't a free pass, and Urban - for all its generosity - will only cut you slack for so long.

belboid's post of a short while ago might be a little eye-opener for you: what he says is DEFINITELY the way you are coming across, as someone who wants to sabotage discussion while pretending to "learn" from it. And down that road lies a fairly regular diet of "fuck off, freakydave" posts. Just so you know what's coming...

And now I think I shall take belboid's advice.
Click to expand...

I'm not expecting a free pass. I know that it's not acceptable to just be miserable and pissed and think that that makes it ok. I am not trying to disrupt discussions. I do find it interesting, I disagree with stuff and try to explain why and it goes into something else.
I don't set out to sabotage discussions or disrupt stuff, I do say things that I shouldn't say, but the fights that I have had on here I have honestly been surprised by how strongly people have reacted. I disagree with people on here but I'm not used to such strong reactions. I don't say particularly outlandish or rude things
 
freakydave said:
I'm not expecting a free pass. I know that it's not acceptable to just be miserable and pissed and think that that makes it ok. I am not trying to disrupt discussions. I do find it interesting, I disagree with stuff and try to explain why and it goes into something else.
I don't set out to sabotage discussions or disrupt stuff, I do say things that I shouldn't say, but the fights that I have had on here I have honestly been surprised by how strongly people have reacted. I disagree with people on here but I'm not used to such strong reactions. I don't say particularly outlandish or rude things
Click to expand...
Let's just say that the best proof of your intentions would be not to behave in the ways you insist you aren't behaving in.
 
Last edited:
freakydave said:
I'm not expecting a free pass. I know that it's not acceptable to just be miserable and pissed and think that that makes it ok. I am not trying to disrupt discussions. I do find it interesting, I disagree with stuff and try to explain why and it goes into something else.
I don't set out to sabotage discussions or disrupt stuff, I do say things that I shouldn't say, but the fights that I have had on here I have honestly been surprised by how strongly people have reacted. I disagree with people on here but I'm not used to such strong reactions. I don't say particularly outlandish or rude things
Click to expand...

In fairness, you do reply to most posts. But if you are concerned about not being articulate, perhaps for now, leave the replies for sober moments?

This is a strong, established community and right or wrong, newcomers who are seen to be disruptive or trolling will be called out for it. It may not be a welcoming environment initially - so take time to get to know the place and digest what your fellow posters have to say. It's a learning experience for everyone, no matter how long they've been here. It's really down to how much you want to learn and be part of it.

Going off on tangents is ok up to a point but making a thread all about you (intentionally or not) is generally frowned on and detrimental to your standing here.

That's not to say people here don't care or empathize with personally shit. They do. The politics forum is probably not the place for it, though.
 
krtek a houby said:
In fairness, you do reply to most posts. But if you are concerned about not being articulate, perhaps for now, leave the replies for sober moments?

This is a strong, established community and right or wrong, newcomers who are seen to be disruptive or trolling will be called out for it. It may not be a welcoming environment initially - so take time to get to know the place and digest what your fellow posters have to say. It's a learning experience for everyone, no matter how long they've been here. It's really down to how much you want to learn and be part of it.

Going off on tangents is ok up to a point but making a thread all about you (intentionally or not) is generally frowned on and detrimental to your standing here.

That's not to say people here don't care or empathize with personally shit. They do. The politics forum is probably not the place for it, though.
Click to expand...

That's fair. I do find it interesting because I did enjoy some of the disagreements on here getting towards the nature of violence and so on but I am not bullshitting how I keep apologising because I keep getting into arguments with people.
 
freakydave said:
The one time I was violently mugged I did call the cops and they did come and drag the muggers away.
Click to expand...
You phoned for the police while being assaulted and robbed and the police arrived in time to stop the crime and drag the muggers away? This couldn't have happened.

freakydave said:
There is that American guy who everyone seems to hate called martyr and he never seems to be told anything or listened to because he just comes in as if he's already made his mind up. I am an adult so I already have ideas, but I am pretty sure that half of them are wrong because I'm getting new ideas on here
Click to expand...
That's just too on the nose. You're a poor troll.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

elbows
Bangladesh leader flees country after protests and many deaths
Replies
1
Views
360
JimW
JimW
Bingoman
Protests in Georgia 14th may 2024
Replies
22
Views
970
The39thStep
The39thStep
AmateurAgitator
Riots and Protests in Greece
Replies
1
Views
367
CNT36
C
Dimitris
Greece in turmoil and pain - 8 days of rage, protests and riots
Replies
2
Views
464
Dimitris
Dimitris
krtek a houby
Book bannings, burnings, ignorance etc
Replies
8
Views
488
Fozzie Bear
Fozzie Bear
Back
Top Bottom