Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You said you didn't want a lengthy argument. Is anyone proposing socialising cars? But as Eirigi argue in Ireland all housing should be public housing. UP Housing — Éirígí For A New Republic
Is America burning? (Black Lives Matter protests, civil unrest and riots 2020)
- Thread starter Jeremiah18.17
- Start date
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
It’s a conversation. There will be tangents in conversations
Not sure what socialism has to do with the BLM protests. Seems kind of a stretch, to me.
I just wanted to comment on the "Don't Know How to Warn You Any Harder" article referenced above.
One problem with it is that the writer seems to imagine that once the people who were "disappeared" arrived at their destination, they were denied access to lawyers, representation, communication. America does have, I think, a solidly pro-rights infrastructure, and police of any stripe or in any uniform, be they paramilitary, military or other, would themselves be shocked at any such denial of fundamental rights. Efforts to establish peace and order in a situation, like the efforts that have killed so many unarmed black men, are distinct in their minds (and in mine) from processing activities: booking, reading rights, jailing or releasing. Could someone be held overnight without such fundamental rights access? Perhaps. A week? No way. I wouldn't believe it even if it was on Fox News (joke).
Trump is not evil. Or I should say, he is no more evil than the rest of us. As Terry Pratchett might say, it's not the spiders at the top oppressing the good, good people down below; it's spiders all the way down. We have condoned torture. We have condoned abortion. We have waged war on a people that did nothing to us - nothing - killing tens, maybe hundreds of thousands, creating numberless orphans, brotherless and fatherless families. We have - and this is common - made it illegal for homeless people to shelter themselves. Think about that for a minute. That speaks to the core of what it means to be an American, and it ain't pretty.
Now, he is, clearly, a liar and a boob, and someone who doesn't really care at all that the whole world knows this about him. That makes him a (thankfully) pretty unique character. I think (hope) most people would be disturbed at having such things revealed to the people they know, much less the world at large. Nevertheless, he has not started any wars or mined the border so that immigrants will be slaughtered, or done anything else which is clearly Hitlerian, at least in my mind. He rumbles and fusses and fumes and tweets and the world rolls on.
I just wanted to comment on the "Don't Know How to Warn You Any Harder" article referenced above.
One problem with it is that the writer seems to imagine that once the people who were "disappeared" arrived at their destination, they were denied access to lawyers, representation, communication. America does have, I think, a solidly pro-rights infrastructure, and police of any stripe or in any uniform, be they paramilitary, military or other, would themselves be shocked at any such denial of fundamental rights. Efforts to establish peace and order in a situation, like the efforts that have killed so many unarmed black men, are distinct in their minds (and in mine) from processing activities: booking, reading rights, jailing or releasing. Could someone be held overnight without such fundamental rights access? Perhaps. A week? No way. I wouldn't believe it even if it was on Fox News (joke).
Trump is not evil. Or I should say, he is no more evil than the rest of us. As Terry Pratchett might say, it's not the spiders at the top oppressing the good, good people down below; it's spiders all the way down. We have condoned torture. We have condoned abortion. We have waged war on a people that did nothing to us - nothing - killing tens, maybe hundreds of thousands, creating numberless orphans, brotherless and fatherless families. We have - and this is common - made it illegal for homeless people to shelter themselves. Think about that for a minute. That speaks to the core of what it means to be an American, and it ain't pretty.
Now, he is, clearly, a liar and a boob, and someone who doesn't really care at all that the whole world knows this about him. That makes him a (thankfully) pretty unique character. I think (hope) most people would be disturbed at having such things revealed to the people they know, much less the world at large. Nevertheless, he has not started any wars or mined the border so that immigrants will be slaughtered, or done anything else which is clearly Hitlerian, at least in my mind. He rumbles and fusses and fumes and tweets and the world rolls on.
bimble
floofy
Not good.
View attachment 228907
and from the tweet just underneath this we find more info about the law firm:
Lawyers planning to defend the suspected Kenosha gunman run a right-wing organization that brings 'lawsuits to stop the lies and smears of the radical left'
Lawyers behind the #FightBack Foundation planning to defend Kyle Rittenhouse have also represented Covington Catholic teen Nick Sandmann and Carter Page.www.insider.com
It would be helpful to understand what is the tyranny they are talking about here? Not the tyranny of the State or the president obvs so the tyranny of what? If they were forced to explain it would fall to bits and lay bare the underlying fault lines.
Ax^
Silly Rabbit
Tell that line to the families of the 185k who relatives died due to his meandering bullshit handling of the Covid situation
which was also assist by defunding the very government bodies designed to react to such a pandemic
or him giving support to the right as its part of his base..
and trying to split the country down race lines to win an election and cement his legacy
he is a dangerous fuckwit and seeming as he learnt from his father quite easily a fucking racist
Boris Sprinkler
Dont be scared
There’s one planet Tom. We can’t all have everything we want. We only ought to take what we need and ensure that everyone else has what they need. Is that hard to understand or are you just an entitled prat?
Ah. What country do you live in? I ask because if you live in America, and have done all your life, well, it's insulting to say it so directly, and I apologize for that, but we all are racists. There are no non-racists, as far as I know, who belong to American society. In order to join society - something kids do at the age of 7 or 8, I think - you have to accept the racist caste system as part of your worldview. I cannot prove this but it makes a lot of sense to me. The reason racism has not been defeated - and THAT can be demonstrated - is that what we've been doing has not been working. America today - well, as of 1998, and I don't think things have changed much since then - is at 98% of its capacity for racism. That implicates all of us. Pointing fingers does not help. In fact it hurts, because it distracts from the real problem. The longer we spend playing whack-a-mole with so-called racism, imitation racism, superficial racism, the longer it will take us to address the real problem. We have not yet begun to fight the real fight. And THAT is a problem.
Ax^
Silly Rabbit
ok i'll bite
so don't point out racism in the US if you live in the country?
how does that help fight the real fight?
also 5 months or so of protesting the situation remains unchanged is this another school shootings thing
where its just part of america?
you don't worry if something is broken in your system?
so don't point out racism in the US if you live in the country?
how does that help fight the real fight?
also 5 months or so of protesting the situation remains unchanged is this another school shootings thing
where its just part of america?
you don't worry if something is broken in your system?
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Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
true, but there's tangents and tangents. Socualism s a topic is s8uch a massive tangent from people getting killed by police because they are black that it's more than just a tangent - it's a whole new topic area.
The one is about racism, the other is about= the means of production, distribution and excgange.
That's no 'tangent' - that's a quantum leap.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
bollocks.
a) yes, the cumulative totality of the system is much worse than Trump's individual presidency.
but
b) where he is leading America right now is way scarier than any place it has ever been led before.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
ok, thanks prof, but you know what I meantquantum leaps are actually very small
sorry, just sayin
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Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
I was referring to the question of private property
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
fair enough
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Is this a problem that can be solved by securing equal rights under the law? Um, done that, pretty much. So no, it isn't. The structural inequality whose roots lie in slavery can't be tackled without radically changing the system, without changing who owns what. How do you do that without socialism?
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Well, in the US they like to change who owns what by means of coups or invasions...
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Unfortunately, selling the idea of socialism to the people is a hard task. America is so indoctrinated against it. Just witness the absurd rhetoric surrounding Biden, at the moment. "Radical socialists!"
It's quite surreal, to actually see the hysteria on the right... and terrifying.
Ah, I apologize. I didn't mean you were less than us if you're not from here, or that your views have no value in any case; what I meant is that if you ARE from here then you're almost certainly a racist, and pointing fingers isn't going to help at all, with anything. I realize that statement amounts to pointing a finger, but I don't mean it that way; I mean it as a simple statement of fact, something we all have to deal with, not as a name to call people. These statements all apply to me just as well as anyone else, so calling other people names isn't going to help ME any.
And I also meant that what you're pointing out as racism is actually not racism. This can be demonstrated pretty clearly: for example, white nationalist, white supremacist ideas decreased from a very substantial level to almost nothing between 1960 and 1980, and yet racism as measured decreased not at all in that time period. Therefore such ideas are not racism. The stupid jokes white guys tell when they don't think black guys are listening, the N-word-filled rants by white guys who don't realize they're being recorded, this kind of speech, again, decreased to an infinitesimally low level between 1960 and 1980, and yet again, racism as measured decreased not at all in that time period. Thus such speech is not racism. Inequality - the schools were integrated in the seventies (obviously not completely or well, but quite substantially) - and again, racism itself changed not at all. So such inequality - in the schools, in employment, in education, in the justice system - cannot be racism. It's not possible. If you want to call out racism, and I applaud those who do, you have to look elsewhere to find it.
Now, that doesn't mean that such things are not objectionable, hurtful, rude, inappropriate or wrong. Of course they are. But fixing them does not fix racism. And so we should stop expecting that it will, and to address racism we should take a very different tack.
I worry a lot. I actually have a plan to fix racism, but it's in a format I'm not allowed to mention here for fear people will think (and they'd be right) that I'm just using the platform to advertise my money collector. The plan does need to collect money, but I'll do it in other ways. This is an interesting forum and I plan (for now) to stick around for a little while.
Ok. You can see clearly - as I do - that the current efforts, the riots/protests/whatever are not working and cannot be expected to, and so you turn to economics in default of any other good idea. Perhaps there's more to it in your mind; I have never studied socialism. I know almost nothing about that. I do know that the Chinese economy is doing pretty well, in spite of their so-called Communist leadership, and remembering as I do the Chinese starvation regimes of the 70's, when presumably they were full-on Communist as much as they could be, I'm negative on socialism in general. Capitalism brought China back; I buy that capitalism has raised a lot of boats around the world; that's as far as I think on that subject. I'm leery of socialism for that reason.
But racism, now - racism can be tackled without any economic dislocation or transitional regime or new ideals whatever. What we need is to recognize that true racism is reflected in the marriage rate of white men with black women. Once we see that, and once we see that this marriage rate is something we could change very easily, then racism will become a problem we truly own. A problem we have real responsibility for, in our own minds. Once you have the keys to the car, you have to move it. It's blocking traffic.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Just fucking tell us.
See the last paragraph of my response to littlebabyjesus above.
quimcunx
imprimeo, lamino, distribuo
We should force black women to marry racist white men?
I'm not sure you're going to be around as long as you think.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
What about them? If all the black women are marrying white men, and if this goes on for three or four generations, the white women will have fewer and fewer options. The white women will choose of their own accord to marry black men. I think the racism rate of white women is about half that of white men; I'm pretty sure they're really two different cultures and two different sets of perspectives. White men and white women, I mean.
And certainly there should be an age limit on the measure, I wouldn't force anyone to marry but certainly not thirteen-year-olds. Maybe put the limit at 18 or 21. No need to be extravagant.
And no force is required. What we have to do is persuade white men to marry black women. This will take some doing, of course, but no one has to suffer or die because of the measures we take, and they'll have options if they just can't bring themselves to do it. Force will not be necessary, and of course would be inappropriate and wrong.
Ha, ha! No, no. No forcing at all. We will INVITE black women to make an offer for white men whom they know and think well of. Once the offer has been made, the white man will have, say, a year to find a black woman of his OWN choice who will agree to marry him. This preserves choice on both sides. I'm sure it will be more than a little awkward for black women, at least starting up, but you know I think the woman always chooses first anyway, in reality.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
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