Instant Justice

[Firky]

Police want 'instant justice'.

"Police are pressing ministers for radical new powers to dispense instant justice, including the immediate exclusion of "yobs" from town centres at night, and bans on street gang members associating with each other, the Guardian has learned."

So ACPO want the power to punish people without going to court in short. I wonder if they'll extend the power to smoking in bus shelters and driving offences... of course they will.

Fuckin' stinks.

 

[subversplat]

 

[Ceej]

Only a matter of time.....

 

[Firky]

Shit, this was supposed to be in gernal or P&P.

MODS!!

 

[joevsimp]

thats exactly what i thought when i heard this earlier

 

[joevsimp]

"modern equivalent of a clip round the ear from the local bobby"

just read the article, cant help but think that maybe it wouldve worked out alright if that had never stopped

oh my gods i sound like the daily mail


not surprised Shami Chakrabarti bringing up sus law, cos thats what it is

 

[Yossarian]

It'd only work if we had an instanct IPCC as well!

 

[joevsimp]

if they get these powers, mayday etc is gonna be a fukin nightmare.

 

[editor]

if they get these powers, mayday etc is gonna be a fukin nightmare.

There'd sure be a lot of ear-clippin' go on.

Well, if Maydays were anything like the ones 5/6 years ago, of course.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

if they get these powers, mayday etc is gonna be a fukin nightmare.

Not just mayday. EVERYday would be a fucking nightmare.

Not the Nine O Clock News's Constable Savage sketch brought to life unfortunately.

Prepare yourselves for 'walking around with a loud shirt in a built up area' sort of arrests.

Of course the powers that be will assure us all that the police won't abuse these powers - of course they fucking wouldn't

 

[Firky]

some good responses, i sometimes get my comments on the beeb so fingers crossed:

To those who say "...if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear", how will you feel when you are detained & held arbitrarily?


Do you really value your liberty so poorly?

D Shepherd, Aberdeen

Added: Tuesday, 15 August, 2006, 12:01 GMT 13:01 UK

What, the police need MORE powers? for what?

Under current powers they can do all of the above, and if you think for one SECOND that it would stop with "just yobs" think again.

Just look at the anti terrorism act being used to exclude a heckler from a Labour conference - you think these laws if they came into fruition wouldnt be abused as well?

Jim, Stafford

Added: Tuesday, 15 August, 2006, 11:58 GMT 12:58 UK

As a retired police officer, I know that the police do not require any more powers. What the police require is more officers patreolling on foot. Fully trained police officers, not the current crop of police support officers who go around in two's and three's for protection. A presence on the street is what is required and demanded by the public

Mike Tarling, Bourne

 

[munkeeunit]

ASBO's, Prevention of Terrorism Act, SOCPA, Breach Of The Peace, and so on...

At one time or another all legislation initially intended for 'yobs' and 'terrorists' either gets used against, or is attempted to be used against, your everyday political activist. All the tools for a far more severe clampdown are in place if needs be, without any additional legislation being needed, only the existing legislation needs to be loosely interpreted and broadly enforced, and that's it.

Quick Link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4365572.stm
"In 2001 there were 8,500 stops and searches under the Terrorism Act 2002. The following year, there were 21,500 and for the year 2003-04, the last for which annual figures are available, there were 29,407."

 

[kakuma]

if that is'nt a police state, then what is a police state??

looks like a police state
acts like a police state
stinks like a fucking police state

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Well, pretty much every government is a police state, in that it uses the police to maintain political power - it's just a matter of degree. Lengthening degree in our case.

 

[Balbi]

if that is'nt a police state, then what is a police state??

due north of your current location probably

 

[Fullyplumped]

due north of your current location probably

There are laws like this, to a certain extent, in Scotland. They don't get used much (to the extreme annoyance of the Scottish Executive and some Councils) and I know that police are not keen on them - they think they're counter productive.

May I put it more constructively..... many people would accept that there is, generally, an issue with older children, adolescents and some young adults behaving agressively or being intimidating. The effect of this can be to make some areas, in town centres, suburbs, and in many villages, not places where people feel safe.

I suppose you could get court orders to prohibit named people from being in certain places at certain times, or the police might be able even to detain or arrest people. Seems like a lot of palaver to me.

What is wrong with the idea of experienced police with local knowledge having powers to explain to some young people some of the time that their presence tonight in this street is not welcome, or that it would be a bad idea, all things being equal, if they were to come into contact with that bunch from across the motorway bridge?

 

[Brainaddict]

I agree this would almost certainly get used at political demonstrations

I also thought of Judge Dredd when I heard of this, but then I thought, actually it's far worse. I mean, the cops in JD are highly trained, intelligent, often consciencious individuals (in their own way), whereas a large percentage of our cops who would be given these powers are a bunch of half-bright, violence-loving twats. The future does not look bright...

 

[agricola]

ASBO's, Prevention of Terrorism Act, SOCPA, Breach Of The Peace, and so on...

At one time or another all legislation initially intended for 'yobs' and 'terrorists' either gets used against, or is attempted to be used against, your everyday political activist. All the tools for a far more severe clampdown are in place if needs be, without any additional legislation being needed, only the existing legislation needs to be loosely interpreted and broadly enforced, and that's it.

Quick Link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4365572.stm
"In 2001 there were 8,500 stops and searches under the Terrorism Act 2002. The following year, there were 21,500 and for the year 2003-04, the last for which annual figures are available, there were 29,407."

i) Breach of the Peace is part of Common Law, not a new piece of legislation as you imply;

ii) The rise in stops under the Terrorism Act may just be because there has been a rise in terrorist threat since 2001 - you know, planes flying into buildings, bombs and suicide bombers on trains, in nightclubs etc.

That said, the idea of "Instant Justice" as described by ACPO is almost certainly another idea picked out of thin air in order to avoid the Government having to admit that the last fifty years of Criminal Justice policy (at both adult and youth levels) have been an utter disaster, and that they need to get the wallet out to fund more prison places.

 

[kakuma]

due north of your current location probably

that is a military state

their gdp probably couldn't buy all our sercurity cameras and keep them running for a year....

 

[Firky]

South Africa was a police state even thought it was notionally democratic, what ever happened to rule of law? Aristotle must be spinning in his grave.

 

[Firky]

source

Instant Justice Scheme

Keith Vaz: To ask the Solicitor-General what steps will be taken to protect (a) innocent people from conviction and (b) civil liberties under the proposed instant justice scheme; whether defendants will be able to seek independent legal advice before accepting a penalty; and whether they will have the option of going to court if they dispute the allegation made against them. [44843]


25 Jan 2006 : Column 2133W


The Solicitor-General: The Government's aim is to deliver a speedier, more proportionate and cost effective response to low level offending that better meets the needs of victims and the wider community. The proposals at this stage relate to extending the conditional caution scheme and dealing with some minor documentary motoring offences and TV licence cases administratively. The Government are at an early stage in considering whether there might be a role for a prosecutorial fine, as is currently the case in Scotland.

Under all our proposals the accused will still be able to consult a lawyer before deciding whether to accept the disposal proposed and go to court to dispute either the allegation or the suggested penalty.

 

[detective-boy]

Prepare yourselves for 'walking around with a loud shirt in a built up area' sort of arrests.

Yet AGAIN U75 posters rampage off without a fucking clue what they're actually talking about, apparently without reading the source material and certainly without thinking about it.

WHERE is there ANY mention of increased powers of arrest?

The ACPO request is for an extension of non-arrest powers similar to the dispersal schemes which exist at present, extended stop and search powers regarding weapons and increased powers to seize vehicles being used unlawfully.

Personally I think they are unnecessary. The police do not use the powers they have already, mainly due to the fact that they do not proactively patrol in many, many areas. They are also likely to cause far more problems than they solve. Police officers in confrontational situations are NOT the best people to decide on punitive measures. Any such powers need to be reviewed by the Courts routinely (only by positive appeal by the accused by all means, but certainly not summary justice challengable only by judicial review proceedings.).

Do senior officers forget so soon? The whole point of the CPS was because police officers were charging people unnecessarily in minor cases, where a caution would be appropriate, because they had pissed them off. This will inevitably be abused in just the same way - it is human nature and you will never change that.

 

[detective-boy]

if that is'nt a police state, then what is a police state??

looks like a police state
acts like a police state
stinks like a fucking police state

Maybe its a state in which the threat of terrorism has risen since 2001 ... meaning that ... er ... activity intended to try and stop terrorism has increased ...

(And go find out what a proper police state is ... you may be describing a state in which the police are becoming more interventionalist but that is NOT the same thing at all )

 

[Brainaddict]

Out of interest detective boy, do you agree that these measures would end up being used inappropriately at political demonstrations? - even more inappropriately than at other times that is.

 

[detective-boy]

...whereas a large percentage of our cops who would be given these powers are a bunch of half-bright, violence-loving twats...

No bigotry or sterotyping there then.

 

[detective-boy]

Out of interest detective boy, do you agree that these measures would end up being used inappropriately at political demonstrations? - even more inappropriately than at other times that is.

Not really. Can't remember many political demonstrations involving uninsured vehicles.

 

[mauvais]

From the article:

Mr Rowley told Acpo's Police Professional magazine that the service had seen such an erosion in its formal and informal powers that it was now at risk of being no more than an agency of referral to a "slow and inaccessible" criminal justice system.

The proposals he cited could prove the modern equivalent of the "mythical clip around the ear from the local bobby" that the media and the public said they wanted.

...the hell?

 

[Brainaddict]

Not really. Can't remember many political demonstrations involving uninsured vehicles.

A slimy evasion worthy of a politician. Clearly I wasn't referring to vehicle insurance but to the measures that could be taken against groups of people hanging around in the street whose presence could be judged by the police to be 'undesirable'.

 

[Brainaddict]

No bigotry or sterotyping there then.

You'll note I didn't say all cops. Just a large enough percentage to worry me if they had these powers.

 

[snadge]

A slimy evasion worthy of a politician. Clearly I wasn't referring to vehicle insurance but to the measures that could be taken against groups of people hanging around in the street whose presence could be judged by the police to be 'undesirable'.

alongside the fact that vehicles aren't insured anymore, the driver is insured to drive a specific vehicle.

so making insurance companies more money.