Hundreds form human shield in Gaza

[rachamim18]

Panda: There have been at least 3 female "suicide bombers" that have blown themselves up and several more attempted bombers who sit in Israeli prisons. The youngest female is 15. Also, females of that age are often used to ferry material and/or fill a diversionary role. In this case there was an Arab man walking approximately 50 meters to her side the entire time until she began running . At that point he veered off and crossed from Tel Sultan into Rafah. It is on film. That could conceivably be a cooincidence [the man being parallel] but one that would be astronomical in odds. As for appearances, it was a perfect m.o.

"Increasing rare." Actually, females are increasing their roles in all areas of terrorism, including "suicide bombing."


Grandma: "Electronic Intifadeh" is a left wing site run by a few misled Jews and alot of Arabs. Please get your facts straight. They do talk of ISM and Reuters being forced to pull the photos, do they not? If not, you are not reading what I asked you to read.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: There have been at least 3 female "suicide bombers" that have blown themselves up and several more attempted bombers who sit in Israeli prisons. The youngest female is 15. Also, females of that age are often used to ferry material and/or fill a diversionary role. In this case there was an Arab man walking approximately 50 meters to her side the entire time until she began running . At that point he veered off and crossed from Tel Sultan into Rafah. It is on film. That could conceivably be a cooincidence [the man being parallel] but one that would be astronomical in odds. As for appearances, it was a perfect m.o.

At least 3, eh?
Yep, anybody could extrapolate an M.O. from a set of three examples in, what, 25 years?

If they're crazy.

"Increasing rare." Actually, females are increasing their roles in all areas of terrorism, including "suicide bombing."

I said "vanishingly rare", which is accurate when the sum of female suicide bombers form an insignifant fraction of those engaged on such endeavours, and your equivocations about increasing female participation aren't germane. They have nothing to do with what's under discussion (except maybe as a method for you to change the boundary of that discussion), which was, if you recall, about a single young girl in an isolated incident.

 

[ViolentPanda]

We know there are no rules. They kill in a frivolous manner.

You appear to be conflating the moral issues with the legal issues. In terms of morality I entirely agree with you, in terms of whether or not the soldiers in question followed the Rules of Engagement under which they are tasked to operate, I'm stating that if they did, then legally (although not morally) they are unassailable.

As an example: You may remember in the 1990s a British Parachute regt corporal being imprisoned for the death of a Northern irish civilian after he opened fire at a car at a checkpoint. He was imprisoned because his actions were judged to be outside of the Rules of Engagement he operated under, and therefore not legally sanctioned, hence imprisonment. If he had operated "by the book" then the law would have had no recourse to him.

I hope you see the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Grandma Death]

Grandma: "Electronic Intifadeh" is a left wing site run by a few misled Jews and alot of Arabs. Please get your facts straight. They do talk of ISM and Reuters being forced to pull the photos, do they not? If not, you are not reading what I asked you to read.

Im getting a bit bored of you dodging the issue here. What has any of the above got to do with my previous post????

Just for you this is what I posted:

There is only one slight difference between a right wing zionist site and Harel. Harel is claiming no such confesssion exists-the right wing zionist site you linked to doesnt even make the claim that the ISM admitted doctoring the photos.

Perhaps it is you that should actually read what you have wrote.

*once again*

There is no mention of any sort of confession by the leadership of ISM that they doctored the photos. Now please....are you ever going to answer any of the direct questions I have put to you on several oocasions?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

PK: No, I am not from Brooklyn. I was born in Manhattan but have lived the majority of my life in Israel. In America I lived in the Bronx, as if it makes a difference. All Jews descend from Jews who lived in what is now called Israel. In my case, my father's family lived in Hevron until they were massacarred in the early 1920s with their entire community. They then went to Syria but you get the point.

erm you can't even get this right not all the jews were massicered in hebron as has been clearly cited a great deal of them were saved by their neighbours...

btw what part of this photo has been doctored exactly ??

is it the bulldozer tire tracks? or the borken lifeless body?

 

[Grandma Death]

btw what part of this photo has been doctored exactly ??

We should be asking the ISM leadership that question because according to our friend here-they have admitted doing so and he has clear proof of this-though as of yet....we still havent seen any proof of such a confession

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

We should be asking the ISM leadership that question because according to our friend here-they have admitted doing so and he has clear proof of this-though as of yet....we still havent seen any proof of such a confession

i happen to know some of the ism leadership at the time of this and i know exactly what pr they got egg on their faces with and what they didn't...

rachel corrie wasn't one of their press release cock up's however...

There if on were being generous however, might be slim cahce that previous photosgrpahs were sued by news agencies and these were assumed to be current to the date but later turned out to be earlier images and some one in their infinate stupidity might have then turned this in to some kind of citeation that people were attempting to pass off ealier photographs of corrie as being on the day, this again might have been thrown in to some kneejerk fantasitics idea of a website which rach might have come accross and this became the basis of his argument...

however as that never happened and it's all a load of made up on the spot supposition...

that and that rach would use what was considered by many to be an appauling attack on a peace activiist to attempt to diminish the event with mere trivialities of non consiqunece is telling with in itself no??

 

[Grandma Death]

i happen to know some of the ism leadership at the time of this and i know exactly what pr they got egg on their faces with and what they didn't...

rachel corrie wasn't one of their press release cock up's however...

There if on were being generous however, might be slim cahce that previous photosgrpahs were sued by news agencies and these were assumed to be current to the date but later turned out to be earlier images and some one in their infinate stupidity might have then turned this in to some kind of citeation that people were attempting to pass off ealier photographs of corrie as being on the day, this again might have been thrown in to some kneejerk fantasitics idea of a website which rach might have come accross and this became the basis of his argument...

however as that never happened and it's all a load of made up on the spot supposition...

that and that rach would use what was considered by many to be an appauling attack on a peace activiist to attempt to diminish the event with mere trivialities of non consiqunece is telling with in itself no??

Agereed. Ive found plenty of evidence about the questionable use of timelines on the photos. But thats still not the statement from the ISM leadership admitting they doctored the photos as rach claims.

He has consistently ducked providing evidence of such a confession since making the claim.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Agereed. Ive found plenty of evidence about the questionable use of timelines on the photos. But thats still not the statement from the ISM leadership admitting they doctored the photos as rach claims.

He has consistently ducked providing evidence of such a confession since making the claim.

there isn't such evidence out there or even in his head for that matter...

 

[Random]

I happen to speak Hebrew so I know that your English version is way off

Would you be able to post up a better translation?

 

[Grandma Death]

Would you be able to post up a better translation?

Oi...get to the back of the Q....im still waiting on some promised information from him....

 

[moono]

Me too. He's waving a 'Hamas Charter' that could have been knocked up in the kebab shop.

 

[Gumbert]

Gumbert: Again, why don't you concentrate on issues instead of people who post? For the record, I have never been a "Settler," nor do I support their movement.

your a settler precisely because you are living in a settler state....Israel

you are also a cyber settler because you have entrenched your position of trying to justify myths of zionism on these boards following in the footsteps of Golem and strategist who were zionist myth talkers like you. and you have not yet buggered off...

 

[TAE]

Would you be able to post up a better translation?

And the original in hebrew while you're at it.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

your a settler precisely because you are living in a settler state....Israel

you are also a cyber settler because you have entrenched your position of trying to justify myths of zionism on these boards following in the footsteps of Golem and strategist who were zionist myth talkers like you. and you have not yet buggered off...

no offence but golem and the stratigist were the same poster...

 

[rachamim18]

Panda: More than 3 because I forgot about the last that took place about 2 weeks ago. She was a grandmother by the way. In fact the number of sucessful [remember the number does not represent the number of attempted bombings] bombers is irrelevant. If you have bent down to kiss a pitbull and got half your face gnawed off after merely doing this once, it is considered intelligent to use due dillgence in all future dealings with cute pitbulls. This is common sense.

She was not a toddler. She was 13. She was walking ijn tandem with fully grown "Palestinian" to whom she made no communication but managed to keep exactly parallel. She was carrying a mdeium sized satchel that even when she broek into a full run managed to hold onto. She refused repeated commands in three languages to stop and desist and then the "Palestinians" jogged into Rafah [this was in Tel Sultan]. Sorry if it disturbsa you but it exactly fits the profile.


"Single young girl in an isolated incident." You mean like the teen girl at the supermarket? Maybe you mean the horribly burned teen girl who tried to blow up the e.r. of the hospital that saved her life? Or maybe you mean the ambulance driver, just out of her teens? Or is it the teen girl who lured by internet, the young Jewish boy for a sexual liason and instead led him to his gory mutilation ending in death? On and on and on. And as for "vanishing," we have the grabdmother in the week of the 20th this November to show us you are wrong.

 

[Gmart]

Desperate people are forced into desperate acts.

How can you be so certain that these people are not just being forced into these acts by a system which is not representing them adequately? They seem to be the acts of people who have been forced into a corner, and as you know cornered people are far more dangerous. Maybe they have nothing to lose?

When the hat fits after all... To many outside this conflict we can only presume that these people are oppressed or else why would they continue to fight? If they have a good life they would settle down. Even the 2 state solution would not stop the fighting because the Palestinians would use it as a Hudna and gather strength for a future conflict. Thus it would simply polarise the conflict, NOT solve it.

As far as suddenly working out why I am putting this theory forward. I'm not sure if you have...

Neither side is prepared to accept the one state solution which is the obvious remedy to everyone else. So logically the rest of the world will sit by unless the conflict gets out of hand. Thus the longer the conflict continues and neither side finds a negotiated settlement, the closer we get to the US insisting on the obvious solution. Thus all it would take is a President who wants to go down in history as the President who solved the Middle East Crisis.

Sound likely?

 

[moono]

Neither side is prepared to accept the one state solution which is the obvious remedy to everyone else.

I believe that Hamas do in fact favour that particular path, and that they recently said as much. Actually, I think they will never accept anything else.

I can't say as I disagree. Who the hell wants a jewish state ?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: More than 3 because I forgot about the last that took place about 2 weeks ago. She was a grandmother by the way. In fact the number of sucessful [remember the number does not represent the number of attempted bombings] bombers is irrelevant. If you have bent down to kiss a pitbull and got half your face gnawed off after merely doing this once, it is considered intelligent to use due dillgence in all future dealings with cute pitbulls. This is common sense.

She was not a toddler. She was 13. She was walking ijn tandem with fully grown "Palestinian" to whom she made no communication but managed to keep exactly parallel. She was carrying a mdeium sized satchel that even when she broek into a full run managed to hold onto. She refused repeated commands in three languages to stop and desist and then the "Palestinians" jogged into Rafah [this was in Tel Sultan]. Sorry if it disturbsa you but it exactly fits the profile.


"Single young girl in an isolated incident." You mean like the teen girl at the supermarket? Maybe you mean the horribly burned teen girl who tried to blow up the e.r. of the hospital that saved her life? Or maybe you mean the ambulance driver, just out of her teens? Or is it the teen girl who lured by internet, the young Jewish boy for a sexual liason and instead led him to his gory mutilation ending in death? On and on and on. And as for "vanishing," we have the grabdmother in the week of the 20th this November to show us you are wrong.

You're still extrapolating a trend from a very limited volume of incidents, a "vanishingly small" number of incidents taken as a percentage of the entirety of such incidents.

While you may feel comfortable with extrapolating such things as an overarching "modus operandi" or even a "profile" for female suicide bombers from such a small sample, I'm surprised that you'd do so.
Given your claims to have been educated to masters level you must realise how spurious any conclusions based on a statistically indignificant sample are?

Most "profiles" of offenders committing particular offences are based on analysis of thousands of individual cases, after all, and even then are only taken as VERY general indicators of possible behaviour. Hardly the sort of material to extract a modus operandi from, eh?

 

[rachamim18]

GMarthews:"Desperate people are forced into desperate acts." Were the Afghan people in the 80s boarding Moscos buses and blowing up russian babies? Were Mallucans doing the same in Jakarta? On and on and on. If you look at the current virus [and yes, it does fit the definiteion of one] of so called "suicide bombing," you will see that most are well educated and at least comprable to middle class backgrounds. It is religious and/or political extremism that has drove them to perform these sick and demented acts.

IDF checkpoints drive a 16 year old girl to wrap a bomb belt around her, approach a supermarket and let loose? Yet the PA operates far more checkpoints in a much more brutal manner! why is it that Fatah is not facing this [yet]? IT is pure media manipulation and sadly, people like you in the West lap it up.

The act itself is so unfathomable to Western minds that they must have some sort of rationale that fits in with their world view. In reality, it is nothing like you imagine.

You know what happens when a "Palestinian" does this? Posters go up almost immediately, flyers go out, and a representative [sometimes more than one] is there to present 2 checks. One check is for the act and the loss of a child. The second is for the punative dozing that used to follow but no longer does.

Usually the family of the criminal passes out candty and fires celbratory shots as is the general custom when something positive has happen ed within the clan. then comes the burial usually that very day . A paprade , replete with fired weaponry follows the deceased.


In a community where "face" is everything, the clan as a whole has gained considerable face. The local media is innundated with all manner of stories, from reminiscing over the criminal as a baby to ther latest acts before the crime. The neighbourhood children play games, much like Western kids. Whereas Westerners play "Cops and Robbers," or "Cowboys and Indians," they will play "IDF and Shaheed." Shaheed is Arabic for martyr and of course it is to lionise the perpertrator.



"Even a "2 State Solution" will not stop this." Damn right!!! YOu see, of the 26 odd militant groups currently at odds with Israel [only including those predominantly "Palestinian" groups because there others in other Arab and/or Muslim nation], ALL claim that they want 100% of the land. 17 of them claim that they wish to commit genocide against Jews worldwide. In fact, ironically, HAMAS is one of the worst and yet we even have people on this board arguing for political recognition of this murderous group!

 

[rachamim18]

GMarthews Part II:"Neither is ready to accept the '1 State Solution' when everyone else is able to see that it is the best of all possible ends." Actually you are very wrong. Who outise of the affected groups agitates for this? Libya's Khadaffi? that is it to my knowledge. Are there others? Pray tell...

In any event it would never work, even in a federated sense that Israel was willing to consider once upon a time [like 30 years ago]. Each of the two nations are tied to the same land. Our ties are longer, go back much further, yet the "PAlestinians" , in modern terms, have long cvlaims as well. To a Westerner a 700 year old ruin seems ancient, ireefutable. We talk in terms of thousands of years here.

There is no denying who was here first. There is also no denying who became a minority in their own land [for brevity's sake I'll omit all the whats and whys] and which group migrated onto essentially empty [compartively speaking] land. "A land with no people for a people with no land" was never uttered by any Zionist. It was a British L-rd of Commons in the late 19th Century who uttered those inaccurate words.


Early on the Zionists recognised that the Arabs residing there would have to be dealt with. It was felt that we would never be able to obtain a contigious state . Ergo, when the Brits in 1919 floated the 1919/1920 Partiutin PLan we jumped for joy and of course accepted it. The Arabs understandably, rejected it. In their minds, why should they settle for less than the whole thing? Arab nationalism was springing up all over the region. They wanted to join a federated Syria.


"Neither side was prepared to accept a '1 State Solution'." Nobody but Libya's Khadahhfi agitates for that. Far better is an adherence to the 67 Borders less Eastern Jerusalem which Israel should [and will] offer a substantial tradeoff of prime land with guarantess of free passage for the gelgious pilgrims intent on visting Islam's 3rd Holiest Shrine. It is much fairer than any situation before it with regards to Eastern Jerusalem.

"The US insisting on the obvious solution." Which I take you to mean a "1 State Solution." America does not want this. Ergo, why would it agitate for it?

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: "Moono believes that HAMAS wants a "1 State Solutuion." I take it then that amazingly, you have still not read their Charter!!!? It calls for the death of every Jew on Eart so why would you ever imagine the organisation to favor a state with Jews in it on a equal footing? Even the Islamic fundamnetalists who do allow for a state with some Jews, they do so on the Islamic doctrine of Dhimmi. That forgoes equality at the door.

"Who the hell wants a Jewish State?" You mean aside from Jews themselves? Well, it was ratified by the UN if you have studied it that far back. Do you similarly object say to an Islamic State? Problems with Saudi Arabia?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

"Who the hell wants a Jewish State?" You mean aside from Jews themselves? Well, it was ratified by the UN if you have studied it that far back. Do you similarly object say to an Islamic State? Problems with Saudi Arabia?

i'm not sure oyu can pcik and choose which UN dereces you adhere to and which one's are irrelevent....

 

[rachamim18]

Panda: It is all well and good talking ratios, statistics, probabilities here but in rela life thinghs happen much more differently. Besides m.os. we have hot sheets, weekly intel briefings, and the like.

Were I to have been in the Captain's position, I have no doubt that I would have neutralised the girl. In a perfect world I would have done so by tapping a limb but most know such scenarios leave little if any time for aim. It is shoot from the hip time. In an even more perfecrt world young girls would be worrying about boys and fashion and grades instead of blowing up baies and elderly.


You know, we have what is called a "g'bush." It is a vetting system, a try out if you will. It is always given tyo teens before induction to seee where they will be deployed [branch, unit, etc.]. It is also given to older soldiers requesting lateral promotion to say, a commando type unit, etc. One of the days is filled with "what if" scenarios.

One such scenario is a counter terror op. You have a reliable informant paint a house as a cache of weaponry and explosives and soemtimes wanted individuals as well. As platoon commander you take the house. As trained you heard all women into one room, all men into another, and clear the building. While the detainees are searched, you have to hit the objective. You have one team to each floow. Our squads are 3 men each so you deploy one squad per floor depending on the size of the building. You accompany one squad and so far it is by the book. Everything gels. Then you enter the kitchen which is often the second floor of rural Arab homes and just as you enter you see a spritely 3 year old girl, cute as a button, smiling and cooing at you with her finger on the pin of an explosive grenade.

Panda, what do YOU do? I am interested in your response to an actual IDF training exercise.

 

[rachamim18]

Garfield: It is exceedingly easy. I adhere to all SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS, as International Law dictates. I IGNORE all GA Resolutions since they are non-binding briefs.

 

[Grandma Death]

Rachamim are you ever going to provide the proof to back up your three statements-or will this be another 'Lets hope people forget' moment?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Garfield: It is exceedingly easy. I adhere to all SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS, as International Law dictates. I IGNORE all GA Resolutions since they are non-binding briefs.

so you pick and choose ...

this is kind of a preciasious postition to place ones self in is it not... i'll only do the legally require minimum ...

now about those sources for the slanderous comments you made eariler about ism admitting to doctoring photos of Racheal... any more news from your person going through your things in timbuktoo or where ever your secret storage is or will you with draw the comments?

 

[moono]

rachamim;

"Who the hell wants a Jewish State?" You mean aside from Jews themselves? Well, it was ratified by the UN if you have studied it that far back.

I keep speaking to all these non-Israeli jews who think that a jewish State is for extremists and retiring Americans. That's apart from the many jewish organisations which are officially against a jewish State.

Yes, the UN created it, along with the fag-end of British empire, but that's not to say that the experiment has been successful. Far from it, it's a pariah state which, as you agree yourself, doesn't give a hoot for its creators. Better a One-State of Palestine that functions as a democracy instead of one State that functions as a brutal jailer and another of prisoners which hardly functions at all.

 

[rachamim18]

Grandma: Glad you asked. I forgot. Why not check out what wiki says about ISM? You might find soemthing to shut you up a bit. I believe it was in the 3rd paragraph but I might have got that part wrong.


Garfield: It is not "picking and choosing." I follow International LAw. Why would I EVER follow OPINION?? It is akin to allowing U75 posters tell me how to live my life. It is ridiculous. Especially when almost all signatories on those critical of Israel did not even accept the Resolution accepting Israel's Right to Exist. In a conundrum, how do you criticise soemthing you claim does not exist?

My storage in the Bronx, where I lived and no. They cannot make heads or tails being that I write in Arabic script most of the time and my cousin does not read Arabic. However, as I stated to dear Grandma, the sevtion on ISM on Wikipedia has a bit on it. I take about a half hour a day in searching, it is all I can spare. Funny though, I do believe you were here when that whole scandal broke and participated in the thread that discussed it. If so, why would you be instigating a misunderstanding now? Curious.

 

[Grandma Death]

Grandma: Glad you asked. I forgot. Why not check out what wiki says about ISM? You might find soemthing to shut you up a bit. I believe it was in the 3rd paragraph but I might have got that part wrong.

You really are making a tit of yourself now.

Once again I ask you:

Provide me with proof that the ISM leadership admitted to doctoring photos of rachel corrie.

Evidence please that Captain "R" sucessfully sued Uvda-and the trial is over.

The producers of Uvda in that same court case admitted their show on Captain "R" was 'pure fantasy'

Rachamim clearly you have been caught lying/exaggerating and you simply arent prepared to admit to this-why wont you attempt to save face. You keep digging yourself into one big hole and the whole of Urban are starting to see you for what you are-an apologist and a lying one at that.

So please-answer the questions I have put to you.