How are we going to get rid of Kate Hoey

[Gramsci]

How exactly does someone who supports - the increase in VAT, the implementation of the bedroom tax, the tripling of HE fees etc - have a good record? If he had a good record this prick (Turner not CH1) would have left the LDs. He didn't so he supports those policies and if you vote for him you're supporting them.

There was no revolution against the Orange bookers when the coalition was started, there wasn't even any opposition, the whole party signed up and then proceeded to defend the attacks on the poor and the welfare state.

Hoey is scum, no doubt about that, but so is every LD politician/member.

Not disagreeing with you.

It's that I know CH1 and he's sound.

The Brexit issue in London is not the same as other parts of the country. It's not just Progress Lambeth Labour who are pissed off with Hoey. Though they have been trying to use her stance on Brexit to undermine her. Why I'm in mixed minds about this. I get impression some in the Progress Lambeth Labour party would like her to come a cropper in this election. She is total maverick. On housing she has been a thorn in the side of the Lambeth Council (all 100% Blairites) particularly her support for Council housing. Against there neo liberal "regeneration" projects and selling off of housing.

 

[Winot]

So far what Corbyn is advocating is far from a socialist utopia. Just imo pretty moderate proposals. For example rights for private renters.

The Liberal Democratic party helped the last Tory government. They are now positioning themselves as the pro EU party. Imo the LD leadership are neo liberals.

That wasn't the point I was making. I was talking about how personalised rhetoric isn't the best way to persuade people to vote for the party you support.

I agree with many of Corbyn's policies, including the one you mention. In order to implement them he needs to get into power. That means persuading the voters of the UK to vote for him, including people who voted Tory.

 

[Gramsci]

How exactly does someone who supports - the increase in VAT, the implementation of the bedroom tax, the tripling of HE fees etc - have a good record? If he had a good record this prick (Turner not CH1) would have left the LDs. He didn't so he supports those policies and if you vote for him you're supporting them.

There was no revolution against the Orange bookers when the coalition was started, there wasn't even any opposition, the whole party signed up and then proceeded to defend the attacks on the poor and the welfare state.

Hoey is scum, no doubt about that, but so is every LD politician/member.

On local Lambeth issues the small number of LD Doors were to the left of the Lambeth Labour Progress dominated Council. They all lost there seats when the electorate punished the LDs nationally for stance on tuition fees and collaboration with Tories. A loss imo. It was only the LD Doors who would question the Lambeth Labour Blairite leadership. As any Labour Cold who did so (Cllr Rachel for example) was expelled from Labour group.

The Alice in Wonderland world of Lambeth politics.

 

[Gramsci]

That wasn't the point I was making. I was talking about how personalised rhetoric isn't the best way to persuade people to vote for the party you support.

I agree with many of Corbyn's policies, including the one you mention. In order to implement them he needs to get into power. That means persuading the voters of the UK to vote for him, including people who voted Tory.

This is bigger issue. Politics are fragmented. As in France. Building a centre coalition as Blair did alienated many people. Those who support Corbyn won't just go away once the right of the party have got rid of him. Which they will. Neither will the poor showing of UKIP mean the that there attitudes will go away.

I don't see a future for so called centre politics.

I don't have the answers. What I see is possible is that this country could get a lot nastier. More divided with more social conflict. After all no one thought post war this country would have riots as happened in 80s.

 

[redsquirrel]

I don't see a future for so called centre politics.

I don't see centre party politics going away in the short/medium term. For all the "upsets" in France Macron is likely to win the presidency and I'd be surprised if either the FN or the hard left took more than a handful of seats at following assembly elections.

There are almost certain to be moves within the Labour party to move back to the centre post GE, Obama is making sure that any move to the left by the Democrats is stomped. And of course liberal/centre parties are more than willing to work together to stop any real alternative - see Spain, Germany, the Netherlands, etc.

While it's being challenged "centre"/liberal politics is not going to go away without a fight.

 

[goldengraham]

There are almost certain to be moves within the Labour party to move back to the centre post GE.

I'm not so sure. After a Labour wipeout Corbyn may not remain as leader, but Corbynites will likely much increase their influence over the parliamentary party, as their MPs would proportionally hold a far higher share of its 160 or so remaining seats (perhaps around one-fifth) than at present. So perhaps not Corbyn, but quite possibly Corbyn Mk II ...

 

[stethoscope]

I'm not so sure. After a Labour wipeout Corbyn may not remain as leader, but Corbynites will likely much increase their influence over the parliamentary party, as their MPs would proportionally hold a far higher share of its 160 or so remaining seats (perhaps around one-fifth) than at present. So perhaps not Corbyn, but quite possibly Corbyn Mk II ...

What? 'Corbynites' don't hold any influence over the PLP - the 'Progress'/right of the party do. When Corbyn goes, thats likely to be the end of any vaguely left shift he's tried to instill.

 

[Mr Moose]

I don't see centre party politics going away in the short/medium term. For all the "upsets" in France Macron is likely to win the presidency and I'd be surprised if either the FN or the hard left took more than a handful of seats at following assembly elections.

There are almost certain to be moves within the Labour party to move back to the centre post GE, Obama is making sure that any move to the left by the Democrats is stomped. And of course liberal/centre parties are more than willing to work together to stop any real alternative - see Spain, Germany, the Netherlands, etc.

While it's being challenged "centre"/liberal politics is not going to go away without a fight.

If it goes away it'll be replaced by low regulation, tax haven Britain with zero chance of a U-turn on any of that shit from the last six years. Thank you Brexit, the left's latest heroic own goal.

 

[redsquirrel]

The "shit from the last six years" is liberalism.

 

[CH1]

The "shit from the last six years" is liberalism.

I appreciate you are greatly committed to invective, but just to point out when I joined the Liberals in 1972 many were strongly into CND and Anti Apartheid - a bit like Corbyn.

Your arguments about ideological purity apply equally to the Labour Party over the whole of my lifetime (62 years FYI).

I rather regret posting here in a way - I have nothing against Kate Hoey personally - though my preference is not to leave the EU, notwithstanding that the EU is as dysfunctional as the USA, which it seems to be trying to emulate .

Final point - why lay into Obama for being a reactionary? He is out of office. Had he been like FDR - or possibly God help us Trump - he might have been able to implement more policies than just the Obamacare which Trump is trying to get rid of.

 

[goldengraham]

What? 'Corbynites' don't hold any influence over the PLP - the 'Progress'/right of the party do. When Corbyn goes, thats likely to be the end of any vaguely left shift he's tried to instill.

Maybe so now, but what I'm saying is that after the election Labour could be reduced to 160 seats or so, with most of the outgoing MPs from the right of the party. The bulk of 30 or so Corbyn-supporting Labour MPs are also in the safest Labour seats, so if you assume that they all hang on, their influence on (what's left of) the PLP will be proportionally much greater after the election than it is at present.

 

[redsquirrel]

I appreciate you are greatly committed to invective, but just to point out when I joined the Liberals in 1972 many were strongly into CND and Anti Apartheid - a bit like Corbyn.

Your arguments about ideological purity apply equally to the Labour Party over the whole of my lifetime (62 years FYI).

Re the Labour party I've never said otherwise, indeed that precisely part of the reason why I probably won't be voting for them.

But I think is highly telling that you see criticism of things such as the increase in VAT, the bedroom tax, the attacks on the welfare state - measures that increase inequality and a real, significant and appalling effect on people's day to day lives as as "ideological purity", as if these are the same as some minor point of theoretical disagreement.

Final point - why lay into Obama for being a reactionary? He is out of office. Had he been like FDR - or possibly God help us Trump - he might have been able to implement more policies than just the Obamacare which Trump is trying to get rid of.

I'm not sure what you are referring to here, I only mentioned Obama on this thread as an example of attempts by liberals/"centrists" to block any move to the left. Are you denying that he was/is part of the section of the Democratic party that is doing that, that wasn't part of the section that he was/is opposed to social democratic tendency represented by Sanders?

I think he's as reactionary as any other liberal, he did implement policies, the same type of policies that for 40 years have been responsible for the rise in inequality, the attacks of the welfare state and the worsening conditions of labour.

 

[CH1]

redsquirrel You should have been around in the days of Selective Employment Tax which Labour introduced around 1968 to divert employment into manufacturing and punish the service sector for employing people.

I remember it well - went down a treat at my barbers, who ranted about the evils of Harold Wilson whilst doing your short back and sides. And presumably happily voted for Ted Heath in 1970.

Your rant about bedroom tax etc - presumably you are blaming me because the coalition didn't crack up over such measures?

You are right - by acquiescing in these sorts of coalition policies Clegg left the local Lib Dem parties bereft of moral standing. This played out in the local elections. Manchester and Lambeth both had viable Lib Dem opposition groups in 2010 - but by 2014 had lost every single councillor.

2. Obama - I don't know what his policies were in detail. He seemed to me to be a good man, a social liberal, but remote, distant and his charisma seemed to evaporate over time.

Do you really think that if Bernie Sanders had got in there would have been radical change? Even Trump can't get his own party to pass his stuff.

My own view is that the USA is the source of much evil. One of the reasons I like the EU is because their culture is to some extent insulated from the worst excesses of the USA by a language barrier.

 

[Reiabuzz]

but so is every LD politician/member.

What do you base that opinion on?

 

[redsquirrel]

Your rant about bedroom tax etc - presumably you are blaming me because the coalition didn't crack up over such measures?

You are right - by acquiescing in these sorts of coalition policies Clegg left the local Lib Dem parties bereft of moral standing. This played out in the local elections. Manchester and Lambeth both had viable Lib Dem opposition groups in 2010 - but by 2014 had lost every single councillor.

I think LibDem members have to own these policies regardless of whether they personally supported them or not. If your a member of a political party then you can't simply say - well the nice stuff that's due to us but the nasty stuff - well that's nothing to do with me. Your party did it, in part, with your support. Now ordinary LD members don't carry the same share of the blame as those that were in the government, or even those that were councillors, but yes by being a member, and remaining one, you (general you) are supporting measures that hurt people, often vulnerable people.

2. Obama - I don't know what his policies were in detail. He seemed to me to be a good man, a social liberal, but remote, distant and his charisma seemed to evaporate over time.

Do you really think that if Bernie Sanders had got in there would have been radical change? Even Trump can't get his own party to pass his stuff.

Obama was a social liberal, he was also an economic one. That's why he opposes any attempt to move the Democrats to the left. As for Sanders, I don't believe radical change (or at least the radical changes I want) come from the ballot box.

 

[redsquirrel]

What do you base that opinion on?

See post above. If you're a LD member you're supporting measures that attack the working class.

 

[Reiabuzz]

See post above. If you're a LD member you're supporting measures that attack the working class.

I'm a member because they're the only possible way of putting the brakes on the Tories at this point in time. Once Labour sorts itself out and gets rid of the juvenile maniacs at their helm I'll quite possibly switch back. My personal priority is slowing the Tory scum down in their pursuit of destroying our public services. Corbyn et al can't do that, and will never be able to do it.

Who will you be voting for if you don't mind me asking?

 

[redsquirrel]

How does being a member of party that was part of a government that was involved in destroying public services, increasing inequality, hurting people and in coalition with the Tories put the brakes on the Tories. You haven't even said that you'd undo such measures for christ's sake.

Most likely won't bother. If there's a socialist candidate standing might vote for them, but that probably won't happen.

 

[Winot]

I don't believe radical change (or at least the radical changes I want) come from the ballot box.

Comes from posting on Urban, obvs.

 

[Reiabuzz]

Very close. Hold your nose if you have to, but vote Lib Dem to get rid of this Brexit fuckwit.

 

[RoyReed]

PaddyPower obviously don't know that UKIP aren't standing in Vauxhall as they love Hoey so much.

 

[Gramsci]

I'm a member because they're the only possible way of putting the brakes on the Tories at this point in time. Once Labour sorts itself out and gets rid of the juvenile maniacs at their helm I'll quite possibly switch back. My personal priority is slowing the Tory scum down in their pursuit of destroying our public services. Corbyn et al can't do that, and will never be able to do it.

Who will you be voting for if you don't mind me asking?

From what I've seen of Corbyn he has behaved with a great deal of dignity. He has had to go through another election to remain leader. His politics are left of centre not "juvenile".

Bringing it back to Lambeth if he goes it will be back to the Labour party run by Progress. As in Lambeth. I know several people who are active on local issues who joined (or rejoined) the Labour party because of Corbyn. Who want a left of centre Labour party. It's not much to ask imo.

redsquirrel the present LD party was in coalition with the Tories. I haven't heard any of them say that was a mistake. Not any of them argue they should go back to being a more radical party as they are when CH1 first joined.

I had someone I know going on at me about Corbyn being a poor leader. That's one argument. But there is a difference between criticising his leadership skills and his politics. It can end up, as my friend seemed to imply, the Labour party should ditch it's left wing policies as they make it unelectable. So ru saying he is a poor leader or a left of centre party is unelectable?

 

[Reiabuzz]

Corbyn's not just a bad leader, he's also an arrogant fuck. Of course that comes from my colleagues in the 'London liberal media elite' or whatever the Islington residing great leader likes to characterises them as. Maybe show up for interviews Jeremy.

People would love an alternative to the Tories. A lot in the media included. Unbelievably, Teresa fucking May is more likeable. Takes some doing.

 

[CH1]

Reiabuzz Gramsci Since I have been invoked I will respond - though as I haven't personally been a Labour Part member since 1971 I don't feel I have any moral right to go on about Corbyn's position.

I find some of Corbyn's *extreme" policies attractive - such as nuclear disarmament.

Others much more questionable - do we have any more justification in taking sides in Venezuala for example than in Syria?

Gramsci you are right in some respects about the old Liberal Party (not the current splinter group led by Steve Radford). Jeremy Thorpe was popularly known as "Bomber Thorpe" in the right wing press because he had advocated direct military action against Ian Smith's UDI regime - which regime was popular in the 1960s/70s with the likes of Enoch Powell and the Daily Mail.

Then there are the social issues - gay rights was an unpopular issue with Labour until relatively late. The Labour Gay Caucus was not formed until 1975, my memory tells me that a gay Young Liberal called Louis Eakes managed to get himself arrested in Hyde Park on a GLF demo lighting a cigarette by "Dutch shag" (i.e. conjoining your own lighted cigarette tip with your friends cigarette - both cigarettes in their appropriate mouth. The Police naturally saw this as an act of Gross Indecency and arrested Louis Eakes). That was in 1970, at which time Young Liberals were happily supporting GLF marches.

I'm pretty sure that a Labour Party Young Socialist arrested on morals charges in 1970 (for provocatively lighting a cigarette, say) would have been mocked - or even expelled as a "bourgeois deviationist"!

I would just like to add that I was having a drink with a couple of well known TUSC members in the Beehive last week. I had a very pleasant frank exchange of views with these two - and my understanding is that TUSC endorse Labour as led by Corbyn and will be campaigning for Labour rather than putting up their own candidates.

TUSC are Brexiteers too, so they don't have problems with Kate Hoey being Brexit - though they were not keen on her campaigning with Farage.

I think that the main problem for Labour is it is so internally divided that a lot of Labour members hate each other because they are in different factions. St Mark said this (Mark3:25) "And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."

That text is sufficiently resonant that Abraham Lincoln used it as the basis of a speech in 1858. Who am I to disagree?

 

[redsquirrel]

Really you're going with the LDs as the pro-gay party, after Simon "The Straight Choice" Hughes. What crap.

Nevermind your current leader, or grand dame, Williams, views. Perfect example of LD hypocrisy.

 

[CH1]

Really you're going with the LDs as the pro-gay party, after Simon "The Straight Choice" Hughes. What crap.

Nevermind your current leader, or grand dame, Williams, views. Perfect example of LD hypocrisy.

Do you want Kate Hoey to stay - if so say so instead of all this invective.

If not who do YOU recommend?

 

[Reiabuzz]

The LDs are the only chance of finally sending Hoey to the scrapyard. Vote for the Pirate Party or Greens if you like. But as you know it's utterly pointless. If you want rid of Hoey, you know what to do.

 

[Reiabuzz]

The mere fact that UKIP have stood aside to give her a free run is surely enough reason to vote tactically this time.

 

[redsquirrel]

Do you want Kate Hoey to stay - if so say so instead of all this invective.

If not who do YOU recommend?

So you're not going to address the fact that the supposedly gay friendly LibDems ran one of the most infamous homophobic campaigns in post-war British political history.

I don't believe in electoral politics, but I'd take anyone above the LibDems

 

[Reiabuzz]

So you're not going to address the fact that the supposedly gay friendly LibDems ran one of the most infamous homophobic campaigns in post-war British political history.

I don't believe in electoral politics, but I'd take anyone above the LibDems

You'd take someone who campaigned with Nigel Farage to lead Britain into making the worst decision in living memory?