Hating the police

[coley]

a lot of people who joined the nsdap did it for just those reasons. many people who join the police, and - i suggest - especially those who join for a good starting salary / smart career move are also going to have a number of preconceptions about the police and society which will lead them to readily embrace what's been described as 'canteen culture' (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/business-english/canteen-culture). i'm not suggesting that these people are out and out fascists, but they are the sort of people who make fascism or the strong state work, in the same way that the large numbers of highly educated germans who joined the nsdap and / or one or more of its formations allowed hitler to get as far as he did. they're going to be people who would have no qualms about another battle of the bean field, another oxford circus (mayday 2001), another orgreave.

So are you suggesting the police are the vanguard of a future british fascist state?

 

[Pickman's model]

So are you suggesting the police are the vanguard of a future british fascist state?

no

 

[SpookyFrank]

surely unthinking and idiocy are very simular?

It is entirely possible to be an idiot and a decent human being at the same time. The same cannot be said of people who follow instructions without question. Without blind obedience human history would be punctuated by significantly fewer atrocities.

People who use violence because they are told to are the very worst kind of scum.

 

[phildwyer]

I wasn't disputing that. I was expressing my distaste for middle-class pseudo-anarchist tosspots such as Steathamite, Charlie Gilmour and their ilk, who imagine they are doing something brave by chanting "scum" at a line of ordinary coppers, while lacking the faintest conception of the mechanisms that ensure they can do so without getting their silly heads caved in.

At last the voice of reason.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Im sure there are a few simpletons, especially amongst old skool cops.

But competition to get into the police force these days is so high that most cops will be graduates, and they'll be the best of many thousands who also applied but didnt get in. good money, career options, a more interesting job than most - cop recruitment these days is a buyers market.

This is a misconception. It's still only a minority of recruits that are graduates. If all or most were graduates as per your claim, 10-15% of all graduates every year would be applying (and half of them failing) to become coppers every year.
It is the case that the upper echelons of the service are mostly comprised of graduates. This is because, as with Civil Service practice, graduates in fields the police desire can be "fast-tracked".

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are yousuggesting our universitys are churning out large numbers of wannabe nazis?

Don't be an idiot. He's suggesting that our universities, in a break with their expressed older tradition of turning out thinkers, are turning out careerists.

 

[likesfish]

Public order policing is never going to be easy or non confrontational

Plus being a good street cop is not a graduate job it takes common sense and an ability to handle yourself physically
But not be a thug.

 

[Buzz sw9]

I'm talking about community self protection in areas where there are no police, not self-defense.

Oi, you love the police I've seen you give money to them

 

[ayatollah]

Public order policing is never going to be easy or non confrontational

Plus being a good street cop is not a graduate job it takes common sense and an ability to handle yourself physically
But not be a thug.

Erm, Well Ok, I think we can all agree with at least a part of that ... but it DOES read like the come on line for a police recruitment advert . "Have YOU got what it takes to be a caring, sharing guardian of the public multi ethnic, commonwealth ?" etc. Unfortunately as anyone who witnessed the gleeful large scale thuggery by the police in the 1980's miners strike - particularly the completely indescriminate thuggery unleashed by police squads in mining communities against anyone who got in their way, could tell you, when push comes to shove MOST of the police are fully ideologically attuned to smash anyone the British state orders them to do. Softie, caring Dixon of Dock Greens they aint !

 

[Pickman's model]

Oi, you love the police I've seen you give money to them

that's just him bribing them

 

[extra dry]

Erm, Well Ok, I think we can all agree with at least a part of that ... but it DOES read like the come on line for a police recruitment advert . "Have YOU got what it takes to be a caring, sharing guardian of the public multi ethnic, commonwealth ?" etc. Unfortunately as anyone who witnessed the gleeful large scale thuggery by the police in the 1980's miners strike - particularly the completely indescriminate thuggery unleashed by police squads in mining communities against anyone who got in their way, could tell you, when push comes to shove MOST of the police are fully ideologically attuned to smash anyone the British state orders them to do. Softie, caring Dixon of Dock Greens they aint !

I think no police drama on UK T.V reflects the true life behind the job, there are a couple of undercover documentaries that do show an alarming level of 'force drift' or in some cases inaction on an incident due to time/shift change overs.

 

[1%er]

Oi, you love the police I've seen you give money to them

You can talk, remember Parati 2009? Anything to get your Nat King Cole

 

[Frances Lengel]

So are you suggesting the police are the vanguard of a future british fascist state?

Jesus, that pickman's, well, can the word "prick" be made any more redundant? As the lights go out in the dorm & he and the rest of the chaps bond over a soggy digestive or two.

 

[Frances Lengel]

I think no police drama on UK T.V reflects the true life behind the job, there are a couple of undercover documentaries that do show an alarming level of 'force drift' or in some cases inaction on an incident due to time/shift change overs.

Tell yer who was a right prick, that PC Ruffy (if that was his name, memory glands aren't what they were), ginger bearded wanker, though, off Street Wars, fuckin right, he nicked a couple of Polish fuckers who had a bag of copper which they were gonna weigh in... Anyway, this copper turned out not to be stolen, so the two Poles were allowed on their way...But not before PC Wankerchops had said their breath stank and instructed them to buy a tube of toothpaste. Fuckin bad attitude, that & if that's what he's doing on camera, well , one dreads to think what he's gettin away with off camera.

 

[coley]

Erm, Well Ok, I think we can all agree with at least a part of that ... but it DOES read like the come on line for a police recruitment advert . "Have YOU got what it takes to be a caring, sharing guardian of the public multi ethnic, commonwealth ?" etc. Unfortunately as anyone who witnessed the gleeful large scale thuggery by the police in the 1980's miners strike - particularly the completely indescriminate thuggery unleashed by police squads in mining communities against anyone who got in their way, could tell you, when push comes to shove MOST of the police are fully ideologically attuned to smash anyone the British state orders them to do. Softie, caring Dixon of Dock Greens they aint !

I did, first hand and most of the 'thugs' were Met coppers, given the tone of this thread I would argue that there are certainly different 'mindsets' amongst the various forces, and the 'Met' are more attuned to the thinking of the NI B specials, having said that. it has been said, that the police reflect the community they serve.

 

[coley]

Don't be an idiot. He's suggesting that our universities, in a break with their expressed older tradition of turning out thinkers, are turning out careerists.

An idiot? I wasnt the one suggesting that our universites were churning out jackbooted neo nazis frothing at the mouth in their eagearness to seize the reins of power within the police,was I?...................now if he had referred our esteemed politicians?

 

[Lock&Light]

no

A large proportion of the Dutch police force accepted the 'New Order' in as far as continuing to defend the Law of the Land. That the Law had been changed by violent invasion did not stop the majority. However none of those policemen, (practically none, I should say, knowing Pick's capacity for pedantry) joined the force with any intention of being the strong arm of fascism. Many, though a minority, proved valient in the defence of democracy. The history of the wartime Dutch police reflects the nature of humanity; that is a majority of dumbasses combined with two small minoritys, the great and the miserable.

 

[Pickman's model]

A large proportion of the Dutch police force accepted the 'New Order' in as far as continuing to defend the Law of the Land. That the Law had been changed by violent invasion did not stop the majority. However none of those policemen, (practically none, I should say, knowing Pick's capacity for pedantry) joined the force with any intention of being the strong arm of fascism. Many, though a minority, proved valient in the defence of democracy. The history of the wartime Dutch police reflects the nature of humanity; that is a majority of dumbasses combined with two small minoritys, the great and the miserable.

Given the quallity of your reply it's clear you should be numbered among the miserable dumbasses of this world

 

[ayatollah]

I did, first hand and most of the 'thugs' were Met coppers, given the tone of this thread I would argue that there are certainly different 'mindsets' amongst the various forces, and the 'Met' are more attuned to the thinking of the NI B specials, having said that. it has been said, that the police reflect the community they serve.

Nope, "most of the thugs" simply WEREN't mostly Met coppers -may have been where you were, but there were plenty of cops from all over the country quite prepared to batter not only strikers but other members of mining communities , AND, flaunt their overtime pay in the strikers faces. And No the police DON't simply "reflect the community they serve" - they serve the British capitalist state, Not particular "local communities". All ruling classes if sensible , employ violence from their "bodies of armed men" only as and when required - so in rural or wealthy areas the local police are usually fairly "gentle, whereas in the big cities or areas in dispute (strikes, Northern Ireland) the velvet glove comes off more often in the defence of the status quo. You seem astonishingly naive about police and policing, coley, despite your claim to have experienced them in action in the mining dispute.

 

[coley]

Nope, "most of the thugs" simply WEREN't mostly Met coppers -may have been where you were, but there were plenty of cops from all over the country quite prepared to batter not only strikers but other members of mining communities , AND, flaunt their overtime pay in the strikers faces. And No the police DON't simply "reflect the community they serve" - they serve the British capitalist state, Not particular "local communities". All ruling classes if sensible , employ violence from their "bodies of armed men" only as and when required - so in rural or wealthy areas the local police are usually fairly "gentle, whereas in the big cities or areas in dispute (strikes, Northern Ireland) the velvet glove comes off more often in the defence of the status quo. You seem astonishingly naive about police and policing, coley, despite your claim to have experienced them in action in the mining dispute.

I speak as I find and most of the coppers up here on 'picket suppression' were from the South and predominately from the met and yes, gloating about their wages and overtime was a preferred tactic to incite the pickets, but I have had many dealings with the 'law' as the brother of a well known drug dealer, as a councillor and in my work with the learning disabled and on the whole i have found them pretty representative of society, thats to say usually decent with a fair proportion of total arseholes mixed in, the problem lies with societies apparent inability to control their worst excesses.

 

[ViolentPanda]

An idiot? I wasnt the one suggesting that our universites were churning out jackbooted neo nazis frothing at the mouth in their eagearness to seize the reins of power within the police,was I?

Oddly enough, neither was he.

Therefore you are an idiot.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I speak as I find and most of the coppers up here on 'picket suppression' were from the South and predominately from the met and yes, gloating about their wages and overtime was a preferred tactic to incite the pickets, but I have had many dealings with the 'law' as the brother of a well known drug dealer, as a councillor and in my work with the learning disabled and on the whole i have found them pretty representative of society, thats to say usually decent with a fair proportion of total arseholes mixed in, the problem lies with societies apparent inability to control their worst excesses.

Which party are you a councillor for, or are you an indie?

 

[coley]

Oddly enough, neither was he.

Therefore you are an idiot.

"the sort of young graduate who'd join the police for the reasons you outline is probably the same sort of person who'd have joined the sa or ss in the 30s!"

Sounds like he is suggesting it to me, or are we going to have a lesson on the difference between suggesting and implying?

Oops, silly me,obviously he meant the Salvation Army or Social Services

 

[coley]

Which party are you a councillor for, or are you an indie?

No such animal as an 'independent' though I try.

 

[Proper Tidy]

No such animal as an 'independent' though I try.

So are you a Tory in an anti-Tory area? Most of the indies round my way are.

 

[ViolentPanda]

"the sort of young graduate who'd join the police for the reasons you outline is probably the same sort of person who'd have joined the sa or ss in the 30s!"

Sounds like he is suggesting it to me, or are we going to have a lesson on the difference between suggesting and implying?

Oops, silly me,obviously he meant the Salvation Army or Social Services

Read Dracher's "The German Dictatorship", or indeed any book concerned with the emergence of Nazism for that matter and you'll find that many joiners did so not because they were thugs (although the appeal of a row should never be underestimated!), but because to join a part of the NSDAP and become involved in it meant easier advancement than trying to get by off your own bat.
It's also a pretty easy case to make that graduates over the last 15 years are as conservative as their pre-war German analogues were, although they tend to have fewer duelling societies (a shame, in my humble opinion).

 

[coley]

So are you a Tory in an anti-Tory area? Most of the indies round my way are.

No, a socialist with the odd right wing tendency, its a mixed area politically here, though the Libdems, who have been in the ascendancy around here, look likely to be wiped out next time around.

 

[Proper Tidy]

No, a socialist with the odd right wing tendency, its a mixed area politically here, though the Libdems, who have been in the ascendancy around here, look likely to be wiped out next time around.

Same as everywhere.

Didn't have you pegged as a red.

 

[coley]

Read Dracher's "The German Dictatorship", or indeed any book concerned with the emergence of Nazism for that matter and you'll find that many joiners did so not because they were thugs (although the appeal of a row should never be underestimated!), but because to join a part of the NSDAP and become involved in it meant easier advancement than trying to get by off your own bat.
It's also a pretty easy case to make that graduates over the last 15 years are as conservative as their pre-war German analogues were, although they tend to have fewer duelling societies (a shame, in my humble opinion).

That is getting away from Pickmans assumption/claim/statement/ that our universitys are churning out more than their fair share of neo nazi fast track entrants into the police.

 

[coley]

Same as everywhere.

Didn't have you pegged as a red.

but what is a 'red'?