Hating the police

[coley]

Why? Stagecoach for example...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/aug/19/stagecoach-hands-shareholders-payout

While its a good example of shareholder greed i dont think trains are essential to our welfare, and a windfall tax in these situations would be more than appropiate

 

[Pickman's model]

While its a good example of shareholder greed i dont think trains are essential to our welfare, and a windfall tax in these situations would be more than appropiate

you don't have to travel far to work then

 

[equationgirl]

While its a good example of shareholder greed i dont think trains are essential to our welfare, and a windfall tax in these situations would be more than appropiate

You have got to be kidding me - how do you think people get to work, if they don't have cars? Trains might not be essential to your welfare but they are to a lot of others.

 

[coley]

you don't have to travel far to work then

No, and I can understand the anger and frustration of those that do, but I cant remember BR being any better, can you?

 

[stethoscope]

No, and I can understand the anger and frustration of those that do, but I cant remember BR being any better, can you?

And yet privatisation has been worse. I met a pretty ardent Tory/pro-privatisation a few weeks ago and even he accepted that the railways were a bigger mess now. All BR and our railways needed was proper investment and development throughout the 80s. Instead we had the break-up in the 90s.

I haven't got good enough eye sight to drive a car, I'm required to travel more and more for work, and without trains/tubes I'd be stuffed.

 

[Pickman's model]

No, and I can understand the anger and frustration of those that do, but I cant remember BR being any better, can you?

i can as it goes.

 

[coley]

And yet privatisation has been worse. I met a pretty ardent Tory/pro-privatisation a few weeks ago and even he accepted that the railways were a bigger mess now. All BR and our railways needed was proper investment throughout the 80s.

I haven't got good enough eye sight to drive a car, I'm required to travel more and more for work, and without trains/tubes I'd be stuffed.

Not going to argue, however I would say the utilities, which affect us all, would be a more urgent case for re-nationalisation.

 

[equationgirl]

i can as it goes.

Me too, not perfect but better.

 

[coley]

i can as it goes.

Than I concede you have a better memory than me.

 

[equationgirl]

Not going to argue, however I would say the utilities, which affect us all, would be a more urgent case for re-nationalisation.

And how is that supposed to be funded then?

 

[MellySingsDoom]

No, and I can understand the anger and frustration of those that do, but I cant remember BR being any better, can you?

I remember in my first "real" job, moaning to my then manager about how shite the rail services were getting under privatisation, and that was in the early 90's! Yeah, I can remember BR being better too - for all its faults, at least it provided a damn good, working and affordable service...

 

[DotCommunist]

less avoidable fuck up like potters bar and hatfield as well

if I have to look at jimmy wales begging physog one more fucking time....

Hatfield exposed the major stewardship shortcomings of the privatised national railway infrastructure company Railtrack and the failings of the regulatory oversight which the company had had in its initial years (principally a failure to ensure that the company had a sound knowledge of the condition of its assets) and ultimately triggered its partial renationalisation.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It was rare that a productive mine was closed, what actually happened was that if you had two collierys close together than one would be closed so the available reserves could be extracted and usually the men from the closed colliery would be moved to the remaining collierys.

Do you want me to name more names of pits etc that contradict your claims? I'm happy to do so.

The area incentive scheme was not what I was talking about at all, it was a total failure as the production bonuses were averaged out and people ended up getting very little, the scheme I was talking about was 'pit based' for datals and face based for the face workers and a lot of us made good money.

You sure you're not getting the Area Incentive Scheme and the Mineworkers' Incentive Scheme mixed up?

Yes and coley will blame scargill all he likes, because I saw the damage he did, and suffered through it, he reduced the NUM from a union with real muscle and the power to negoitate to a hollowed out wreck representing a handful of pits.

Who called the strike, coley?

If he had had an iota of common sense he would have realised he was walking straight into a well laid trap, and the end result was the tories were in a position to do what they liked regarding the coal industry and they also had the rest of the union movement by the balls.

Bullshit. It's pretty obvious given the concurrent issues for various unions (NUR, NUofS, SOGAT, TGWU and many others) and from white papers in '81, '82 and '83 that heavy-duty legislation was going to be brought to bear on all labour organisation, and that the Miners Strike didn't allow them to get anyone more by the balls than they already were.

 

[ViolentPanda]

but at least 4 pits in yorkshire came out before the NUM NE called fior a nationwide strike

Didn't you know that Arthur "Shredded Wheat hair" Scargill had the miners at those pits in headlocks, and threatened them with Chinese burns unless they struck?

It's all Scargill's fault, I tells ya!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Local colliery strikes have never been uncommon, what we needed then was intelligent leadership and we didnt have it

These weren't your average "local colliery strikes", though. They were four collieries striking for the same reason, not because of individual colliery issues.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No, and I can understand the anger and frustration of those that do, but I cant remember BR being any better, can you?

I can't actually think of any services that have improved, so an awful lot more money than BR would have cost has been spunked up the slack cunt of Capitalism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And how is that supposed to be funded then?

We're always hearing about "good business sense" from our neo-liberal politicians. Well, it would actually be good business sense (although totally against the neo-liberal concept of transferring public goods to private pockets and moving states away from any form of state or state-aided provision) to re-nationalise such utilities, in terms of savings to the taxpayer.
Of course, that's not what neo-liberal Capitalism is about. For such as they, "good business sense" means what they can accumulate at the least cost to themselves.

 

[equationgirl]

We're always hearing about "good business sense" from our neo-liberal politicians. Well, it would actually be good business sense (although totally against the neo-liberal concept of transferring public goods to private pockets and moving states away from any form of state or state-aided provision) to re-nationalise such utilities, in terms of savings to the taxpayer.
Of course, that's not what neo-liberal Capitalism is about. For such as they, "good business sense" means what they can accumulate at the least cost to themselves.

I just wanted to hear coley's utilities nationalisation vision

 

[ViolentPanda]

I just wanted to hear coley's utilities nationalisation vision

I suspect that it's mainly based around coley getting his water, leccy and gas cheaper. He's nothing if not instrumentalist.

 

[coley]

Do you want me to name more names of pits etc that contradict your claims? I'm happy to do so.

How many of them did you work at? A classic example was the efforts to protect Ashington, one of the major collierys in the area, was the closure of Woodhorn (where I worked at the time) now at the time of its closure it was a much more productive mine than Ashington but Ashington was deemed more important

You sure you're not getting the Area Incentive Scheme and the Mineworkers' Incentive Scheme mixed up?

The area scheme was pants, the one introduced a couple of years before the strike made us a lot more money

Who called the strike, coley?

Already answered

Bullshit. It's pretty obvious given the concurrent issues for various unions (NUR, NUofS, SOGAT, TGWU and many others) and from white papers in '81, '82 and '83 that heavy-duty legislation was going to be brought to bear on all labour organisation, and that the Miners Strike didn't allow them to get anyone more by the balls than they already were.

And as a result of the miners strike and our subsequent hammering all those 'white papers' became reality

 

[coley]

Didn't you know that Arthur "Shredded Wheat hair" Scargill had the miners at those pits in headlocks, and threatened them with Chinese burns unless they struck?

It's all Scargill's fault, I tells ya!

Glad we agree.

 

[coley]

And how is that supposed to be funded then?

They funded the banks bail out quickly enough, mebbes a bit more QE?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

There are 10's of thousands of towns and villages around the world where people never see the police, what do you think people in those ares do?

The social constraints that operate at the village level don't work anymore at the urban metropolis level: and most of the world's population is urbanized now.

 

[A380]

"There are 10's of thousands of towns and villages around the world where people never see the police, what do you think people in those ares do?"

Beat their wives without fear of any sanction.

 

[DotCommunist]

crap example given that DV goes on in places where there is a formal OB and police tardiness in dealing on domestics

 

[Proper Tidy]

The absence of police doesn't mean the absence of policing anyway.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How many of them did you work at? A classic example was the efforts to protect Ashington, one of the major collierys in the area, was the closure of Woodhorn (where I worked at the time) now at the time of its closure it was a much more productive mine than Ashington but Ashington was deemed more important

I have to have worked at a pit to have knowledge about what happened there, do I?

The area scheme was pants, the one introduced a couple of years before the strike made us a lot more money

The Area Incentive Scheme scheme was introduced a couple of years before the strike. It was the Mineworkers' Incentive Scheme that preceded it (brought in '73-'74.

Still, I must be wrong 'cos I didn't work down t'pit.

Already answered

It wasn't Scargill, was it? The strike wasn't called by the union hierarchy, it was called, started and spread by union members before the union hierarchy got their fingers out..

And as a result of the miners strike and our subsequent hammering all those 'white papers' became reality

The white papers were already becoming reality before the strike began. All the strike did was give them an excuse to revive the anti-union propaganda they deployed in '79. If it hadn't have been the NUM it would have been the NUR, who also struck in '84, or the NUofS or the TGWU (who were actually a decent union before Bill Morris sucked neo-liberal cock).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Glad we agree.

One can only wonder what weight you have on your conscience that stops you from accepting your own part in events.

 

[coley]

One can only wonder what weight you have on your conscience that stops you from accepting your own part in events.

The strike lasted a year, I was on strike 51 weeks, I just couldnt stomach the 'victory parade' that was organised by our leaders on our return to work, my conscience is absolutely clear.

 

[coley]

I have to have worked at a pit to have knowledge about what happened there, do I?
Helps, google cant tell you everything.

The Area Incentive Scheme scheme was introduced a couple of years before the strike. It was the Mineworkers' Incentive Scheme that preceded it (brought in '73-'74.

Still, I must be wrong 'cos I didn't work down t'pit.
I was in the Army 73,74 so if you say it was the area incentive scheme that was introduced a couple of years befor the strike you are possibly right but there was one introduced about 6 years before the strike which was pants as it diluted the money earned to nothing. There was lots of 'schemes' introduced at pit, area, and national area, there was no area more secretive than yorkshire when it came to letting the rest of us know what they were actually earning

It wasn't Scargill, was it? The strike wasn't called by the union hierarchy, it was called, started and spread by union members before the union hierarchy got their fingers out..

A few pits in Yorkshire (always the most militant area) jumped the gun but we all knew a strike was coming and it was never the solid national strike that some try to portray.

The white papers were already becoming reality before the strike began. All the strike did was give them an excuse to revive the anti-union propaganda they deployed in '79. If it hadn't have been the NUM it would have been the NUR, who also struck in '84, or the NUofS or the TGWU (who were actually a decent union before Bill Morris sucked neo-liberal cock).

Doesnt alter the fact that after our hammering there was little enthusiasm by the remaining unions to take the tories on does it? and the National strike envisaged by scargill never even came close