Hating the police

[Mr.Bishie]

Where is around here?

Considering the early mobile phone users were labelled as middle class, i'd say the posh areas?

 

[DotCommunist]

he said 50 years ago, so i am assuming he meant landlines

 

[coley]

Productive pits were being closed out from underneath miners throughout the early '80s. Off the top of my head Kinneil in SCotland was shut, Snowdown up the road from where my folks lived in Kent, Blaengwrach and Ty Mawr in Wales, to name just a few. Gormley talked the miners into accepting the Area Incentive Scheme with big talk about bonuses, and for a minority that was true. For the majority it was no bonus at all because they'd gone from a national scheme to a local one - if your region wasn't super-productive, you were fucked. The scheme coley is talking about was "very generous" for some, but left most of the people working in older mines with less money than previously.

BTW, Scargill had no legal obligation to hold a strike ballot. That legislation wasn't tabled until after the strike had started, and coley also isn't mentioning the way closures and threatened closures "on the ground" (i.e. not just MacGregor's proposed pruning) were ongoing during the negotiations that preceded the strike. Not exactly a show of good intent to do that, was it?

coley can blame Scargill and Scargill's politics all he likes. He can't escape from the fact that the mines would have been closed anyway, and that the hammer would have fallen more brutally than it did if it hadn't have been for the strike.

It was rare that a productive mine was closed, what actually happened was that if you had two collierys close together than one would be closed so the available reserves could be extracted and usually the men from the closed colliery would be moved to the remaining collierys.
The area incentive scheme was not what I was talking about at all, it was a total failure as the production bonuses were averaged out and people ended up getting very little, the scheme I was talking about was 'pit based' for datals and face based for the face workers and a lot of us made good money
Yes and coley will blame scargill all he likes, because I saw the damage he did, and suffered through it, he reduced the NUM from a union with real muscle and the power to negoitate to a hollowed out wreck representing a handful of pits.
If he had had an iota of common sense he would have realised he was walking straight into a well laid trap, and the end result was the tories were in a position to do what they liked regarding the coal industry and they also had the rest of the union movement by the balls.

 

[stethoscope]

he said 50 years ago, so i am assuming he meant landlines

I would have thought little/no infrastructure depending on where you were would have played a big part back then too. And of course take up usually takes a while because if there's very few people you'd actually phone anyway, then that somewhat limits the need/reasons to spend money on getting a phoneline yourself.

 

[coley]

So why do you call yourself a socialist? Perhaps you could expand on which 'values' you mean.

Where is around here?

Protection of the vunerable would be my first priority, nationalisation of the utilities and energy supply, a fair ratio between the highest and lowest earners in a company, a police force accountable to the community it serves, that enough to be going on with?
Morpeth area, Northumberland

 

[Proper Tidy]

Protection of the vunerable would be my first priority, nationalisation of the utilities and energy supply, a fair ratio between the highest and lowest earners in a company, a police force accountable to the community it serves, that enough to be going on with?

Those are all class issues! Explicitly so.

 

[DotCommunist]

I would have thought little/no infrastructure depending on where you were would have played a big part back then too. And of course take up usually takes a while because if there's very few people you'd actually phone anyway, then that somewhat limits the need/reasons to spend money on getting a phoneline yourself.

most people with phoneline way back in the day had party lines, and not the good sort either

 

[coley]

Those are all class issues! Explicitly so.

How do you come to that conclusion? whos to say the Duke of northumberland isnt dead keen on having the water board re-nationalised?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Protection of the vunerable would be my first priority, nationalisation of the utilities and energy supply, a fair ratio between the highest and lowest earners in a company, a police force accountable to the community it serves, that enough to be going on with?
Morpeth area, Northumberland

Who are the most vulnerable in society? What factors need addressing?

Who benefits from the privatised utilities and who would benefit from nationalised utilities?

Why is addressing income inequality important?

Why does the police need to be accountable to ordinary working class people instead of the state?

I don't disagree btw, I'm just amused that you can take this as your position whilst claiming class is irrelevant.

I don't really know Morpeth.

 

[Proper Tidy]

How do you come to that conclusion? whos to say the Duke of northumberland isnt dead keen on having the water board re-nationalised?

Shall we have a bet and you can ask him?

My money is on 'no'

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah but any progress on answering my questions?

Back to you coley.

 

[Streathamite]

50.50 Northumberland voted 49% 51% against and that was only achieved by ignoring the mechanics vote, but even without a clear mandate scargill was going to have us out, therin lies the seeds of our defeat, by no means were we unanimous or even solidly behind the strike.

aren't you forgetting one rather important thing; the strike started at the grassroots, by dint of wildcats at cortonwood etc, and the national leadership were dragged on behind

 

[coley]

Who are the most vulnerable in society? What factors need addressing?

Who benefits from the privatised utilities and who would benefit from nationalised utilities?

Why is addressing income inequality important?

Why does the police need to be accountable to ordinary working class people instead of the state?

I don't disagree btw, I'm just amused that you can take this as your position whilst claiming class is irrelevant.

I don't really know Morpeth.

The elderly, the sick and disabled, the genuinely poor. But I have no problems with 'means testing' why should we have the ridicilious situation where wealthy pensioners still get winter fuel allowance? or millionares get child benefit.
Foreign corporations generally, and we would, I doubt we would have been hammered with an 18% rise in energy prices by a nationalised energy company.
Fairness.
I didnt say 'ordinary working class people' i said communities, dont put words in my gob.
Mebbes i dont do the 'class war/hate the rich' bit well enough?

 

[coley]

Shall we have a bet and you can ask him?

My money is on 'no'

Actually he has turned down a load of money from the wind turbine scammers so he aint all bad

 

[coley]

aren't you forgetting one rather important thing; the strike started at the grassroots, by dint of wildcats at cortonwood etc, and the national leadership were dragged on behind

No they were not 'dragged behind' they quickly seized what they saw as an opportunity to have a national strike but it never became one, they should have used the anger more sensibly and gone for a vote to 'work to rule' to diminish coal stocks

 

[Streathamite]

Class is too fluid (as VP points out) these days are bankers a 'class' or people who work in the city? I can see individuals and corporations or companies as the 'enemy' but not a clearly defined 'class'

class is no more fluid than it ever was, and it is very easy to define; do you own any part of the means of production, distribution and exchange? do you need to sell your labour to survive? If the answer to the former is 'yes', you are boss-class, if a 'yes' to the latter you are working class.

 

[Streathamite]

No they were not 'dragged behind' they quickly seized what they saw as an opportunity to have a national strike but it never became one, they should have used the anger more sensibly and gone for a vote to 'work to rule' to diminish coal stocks

but at least 4 pits in yorkshire came out before the NUM NE called fior a nationwide strike

 

[coley]

class is no more fluid than it ever was, and it is very easy to define; do you own any part of the means of production, distribution and exchange? do you need to sell your labour to survive? If the answer to the former is 'yes', you are boss-class, if a 'yes' to the latter you are working class.

Now what happens to your definition if the workers in the company make more than the boss?

 

[Proper Tidy]

The elderly, the sick and disabled, the genuinely poor. But I have no problems with 'means testing' why should we have the ridicilious situation where wealthy pensioners still get winter fuel allowance? or millionares get child benefit.
Foreign corporations generally, and we would, I doubt we would have been hammered with an 18% rise in energy prices by a nationalised energy company.
Fairness.
I didnt say 'ordinary working class people' i said communities, dont put words in my gob.
Mebbes i dont do the 'class war/hate the rich' bit well enough?

The (poor) elderly, the (poor) sick, the (poor) disabled; and the poor.

How is this not about class?

Means testing - see, universal benefits are just better - better at delivering the benefit, better economically as the costs of delivering the benefit are cheaper.

It is far easier to provide benefits universally and recoup the cost from the wealthy through taxation. You should be arguing for tax reform not means testing.

The shareholders - who know no border - benefit and the consumer loses. Shareholders may be pension pots, even unions, but is primarily monopolised by the parasitical class. The consumers who suffer the most are the ones for which the cost is prohibitive ie working class people.

Ok, communities. Why do communities (of ordinary working class people) need protection from ( democratic reforms to) the police in it's present form?

It isn't about hating the rich. Stop looking at it individually (the baron of Morpeth is sound or whatever). It's about society. I'm sure there are coppers and land owning gentry a plenty who are lovely chaps who would stand you a pint. I get that. It is about addressing the vast gap - which you acknowledged in your policy of fairer pay between boss and worker - between the haves and the have-nots, and how the haves prevent the have-nots from addressing this gap.

 

[coley]

but at least 4 pits in yorkshire came out before the NUM NE called fior a nationwide strike

Local colliery strikes have never been uncommon, what we needed then was intelligent leadership and we didnt have it

 

[coley]

The (poor) elderly, the (poor) sick, the (poor) disabled; and the poor.

How is this not about class?

Means testing - see, universal benefits are just better - better at delivering the benefit, better economically as the costs of delivering the benefit are cheaper.

It is far easier to provide benefits universally and recoup the cost from the wealthy through taxation. You should be arguing for tax reform not means testing.

The shareholders - who know no border - benefit and the consumer loses. Shareholders may be pension pots, even unions, but is primarily monopolised by the parasitical class. The consumers who suffer the most are the ones for which the cost is prohibitive ie working class people.

Ok, communities. Why do communities (of ordinary working class people) need protection from ( democratic reforms to) the police in it's present form?

It isn't about hating the rich. Stop looking at it individually (the baron of Morpeth is sound or whatever). It's about society. I'm sure there are coppers and land owning gentry a plenty who are lovely chaps who would stand you a pint. I get that. It is about addressing the vast gap - which you acknowledged in your policy of fairer pay between boss and worker - between the haves and the have-nots, and how the haves prevent the have-nots from addressing this gap.

No, I disagree and in this information age HRMC knows who has got what it would be a fairly simple operation to disbar those on certain income levels from benefits, I wouldnt be averse to tax reform provided it was fair to all concerned and I would certainly have taxed the arses off the bankers bonuses.
I have no gripe with shareholders, just our utilities being owned by them.
Who's arguing against democratic reforms to our police? I would love to see the police accountable to a locally elected commission rather than the bunch of masons who usually sit on these committees.
Oh, I am all for ;bridging this "vast gap" i just dont think violence and anarchy are the way to do it

 

[Streathamite]

Now what happens to your definition if the workers in the company make more than the boss?

I'd like to hear more about this company, such as it's name....

 

[Proper Tidy]

No, I disagree and in this information age HRMC knows who has got what it would be a fairly simple operation to disbar those on certain income levels from benefits, I wouldnt be averse to tax reform provided it was fair to all concerned and I would certainly have taxed the arses off the bankers bonuses.
I have no gripe with shareholders, just our utilities being owned by them.
Who's arguing against democratic reforms to our police? I would love to see the police accountable to a locally elected commission rather than the bunch of masons who usually sit on these committees.
Oh, I am all for ;bridging this "vast gap" i just dont think violence and anarchy are the way to do it

HMRC is not the lean mean fighting machine you think it is. But even if it was, it wouldn't change the fact that delivering universal benefits is more efficient than means-testing. The wealthy will have already paid for this universal benefit through taxation.

You have no gripe with shareholders? So why do you object to them owning the utilities? Anything else you'd nationalise? The shareholders are doing an excellent job with the trains, for example. How would they do with the NHS?

I am asking why you feel democratic reforms to policing are necessary. Why do we need the police to answer to us not to the state? Which sections of society are likely to need greater protection from the police to render your proposed reforms necessary?

I haven't mentioned anarchy or violence. Why have you?

 

[coley]

I'd like to hear more about this company, such as it's name....

And I would like to know if it would alter you definition?

 

[coley]

HMRC is not the lean mean fighting machine you think it is. But even if it was, it wouldn't change the fact that delivering universal benefits is more efficient than means-testing. The wealthy will have already paid for this universal benefit through taxation.

You have no gripe with shareholders? So why do you object to them owning the utilities? Anything else you'd nationalise? The shareholders are doing an excellent job with the trains, for example. How would they do with the NHS?

I am asking why you feel democratic reforms to policing are necessary. Why do we need the police to answer to us not to the state? Which sections of society are likely to need greater protection from the police to render your proposed reforms necessary?

I haven't mentioned anarchy or violence. Why have you?

Then taking a universal benefit off them would be a form of extra taxation, wouldnt it? HRMC does need reform, at least in its upper echelons but it could do the job quite easily.
i have no gripe with shareholders of companies which make chocolate or washing machines etc, however utilities which are essential to our wellbeing are a different matter, i assume the trains is you being ironic? I am undecided re; the NHS, in its present form I think its not working, but I am open to ideas on any reforms that would improve it, provided that treatment is always free at the point of delivery.
The police? while I dont think they are the neo nazi instrument of state suppression that some on here suggest, I do think greater accountability is necessary, how, for instance, has there never been a conviction for unlawful killing despite the number of innocent civilians shot by the police over the years?
Because there seems to be a fair amount of support for anarchy on here and anarchy usually begets violence

 

[Streathamite]

And I would like to know if it would alter you definition?

given that I doubt very much whether such a company exists, I'll hold fire till you name names, thanks

 

[coley]

given that I doubt very much whether such a company exists, I'll hold fire till you name names, thanks

It does, but as it will probably be going under due to the 'cuts' I think I will keep it confidential, thanks.

 

[Streathamite]

sorry, I don't believe you.
put up/shut up...

 

[stethoscope]

i assume the trains is you being ironic?

Why? Stagecoach for example...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/aug/19/stagecoach-hands-shareholders-payout

Stagecoach, owner of the South West Trains and East Midlands Trains franchises, has risked the ire of passengers, green campaigners and trade unions with plans to return £340m to shareholders – including an £88m windfall for the brother and sister who founded the group.

Under the shareholder payout, worth 47p a share, Stagecoach's chief executive, Sir Brian Souter, will take away £51m and his sister, Ann Gloag, will earn just under £37m.

The announcement comes just days after commuters learned that they faced thehighest rises in rail faressince the industry was privatised in the mid-1990s.

Regulated fares, such as season tickets, are based on last month's inflation figure, which was announced on Tuesday. Under the system, prices will rise in January by the rate of the retail price index – 5% in July – plus a further three percentage points. That equates to an average rise of 8% for season ticket holders, compared with 5.8% last year.

However, some fares could rise by as much a 13% under the "flex" system that allows train operators to add a further 5% to fares on certain routes provided the average increase across a basket of fares is no greater than the government cap.

 

[coley]

sorry, I don't believe you.
put up/shut up...

Should I worry? do I sound bovvered?