Hating the police

[ViolentPanda]

So doomed from the minute scargill was elected...

Except that we both know it wasn't, and that if Thatcher hadn't approved the tactics she did, tactics which politicised the work of the police and security services, he'd have won despite the stockpiled coal. Again, I'd suggest people apprise themselves of what is in the memoirs of Conservative politicians of the time. They knew that the pickets had to be broken, and that miners and drivers had to be induced to scab, or the lights would have started going out a lot sooner.
Fortunately for Thatcher and her ilk, they could always rely on Notts doing the dirty.

and as for fantasy, what about arfurs claim that the heaps of coal at the power stations were hollow? his ego and his jealousy of the achievments of Joe Gormley were prime movers in his haste to get us on stike.

Proof of the claims w/r/t Gormley, or are these just the same old rumours that were doing the rounds 28 years ago?

 

[coley]

Except that we both know it wasn't, and that if Thatcher hadn't approved the tactics she did, tactics which politicised the work of the police and security services, he'd have won despite the stockpiled coal. Again, I'd suggest people apprise themselves of what is in the memoirs of Conservative politicians of the time. They knew that the pickets had to be broken, and that miners and drivers had to be induced to scab, or the lights would have started going out a lot sooner.
Fortunately for Thatcher and her ilk, they could always rely on Notts doing the dirty.

Proof of the claims w/r/t Gormley, or are these just the same old rumours that were doing the rounds 28 years ago?

Not a hope, scargills driving ambition was to do to Thatcher what Gormley did to Heath but circumstances were vastly different, not least of all public opinion, Scargill was not only a hopeless stategist he was also a PR disaster

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not a hope, scargills driving ambition was to do to Thatcher what Gormley did to Heath but circumstances were vastly different, not least of all public opinion, Scargill was not only a hopeless stategist he was also a PR disaster

So you are just recycling the gutter press rumours, then. Righty-ho.

 

[coley]

So you are just recycling the gutter press rumours, then. Righty-ho.

Righty ho, I was there, I saw the machinations, the vote rigging and the intimidation and finally the destruction of the NUM and the mining industry and though I imagine its oh so fashionable on here to blame thatch for everything, Scargill presented her with the means and opportunity, anybody else would have taken a long hard look at the resources she had available and realised an outright strike was doomed, thats not to say the miners couldnt have won, or salvaged a sizable piece of the industry but with Scargill leading the charge we were knackered from day one.

 

[Meltingpot]

Righty ho, I was there, I saw the machinations, the vote rigging and the intimidation and finally the destruction of the NUM and the mining industry and though I imagine its oh so fashionable on here to blame thatch for everything, Scargill presented her with the means and opportunity, anybody else would have taken a long hard look at the resources she had available and realised an outright strike was doomed, thats not to say the miners couldnt have won, or salvaged a sizable piece of the industry but with Scargill leading the charge we were knackered from day one.

Does anyone know what Scargill's real reason was for not holding a pre-strike ballot?

One thing I remember from that time was people supporting the strike by leaving lights, hob rings etc. on in student housing for longer than they needed to, to help quicken the shrinkage of the coal stocks (if even in a small way).

 

[coley]

Does anyone know what Scargill's real reason was for not holding a pre-strike ballot?

One thing I remember from that time was people supporting the strike by leaving lights, hob rings etc. on in student housing for longer than they needed to, to help quicken the shrinkage of the coal stocks (if even in a small way).

We had regional ballots and outside Yorkshire the vote was largely 50.50 Northumberland voted 49% 51% against and that was only achieved by ignoring the mechanics vote, but even without a clear mandate scargill was going to have us out, therin lies the seeds of our defeat, by no means were we unanimous or even solidly behind the strike.
And the goverment was more than prepared, 18 months before the strike they introduced a very generous productivity incentive scheme which meant we were churning out coal at a higher rate then ever before

 

[ViolentPanda]

Productive pits were being closed out from underneath miners throughout the early '80s. Off the top of my head Kinneil in SCotland was shut, Snowdown up the road from where my folks lived in Kent, Blaengwrach and Ty Mawr in Wales, to name just a few. Gormley talked the miners into accepting the Area Incentive Scheme with big talk about bonuses, and for a minority that was true. For the majority it was no bonus at all because they'd gone from a national scheme to a local one - if your region wasn't super-productive, you were fucked. The scheme coley is talking about was "very generous" for some, but left most of the people working in older mines with less money than previously.

BTW, Scargill had no legal obligation to hold a strike ballot. That legislation wasn't tabled until after the strike had started, and coley also isn't mentioning the way closures and threatened closures "on the ground" (i.e. not just MacGregor's proposed pruning) were ongoing during the negotiations that preceded the strike. Not exactly a show of good intent to do that, was it?

coley can blame Scargill and Scargill's politics all he likes. He can't escape from the fact that the mines would have been closed anyway, and that the hammer would have fallen more brutally than it did if it hadn't have been for the strike.

 

[Lock&Light]

So you are just recycling the gutter press rumours, then. Righty-ho.

No he's not. He tells it like it was.

 

[butchersapron]

Righty ho, I was there, I saw the machinations, the vote rigging and the intimidation and finally the destruction of the NUM and the mining industry and though I imagine its oh so fashionable on here to blame thatch for everything, Scargill presented her with the means and opportunity, anybody else would have taken a long hard look at the resources she had available and realised an outright strike was doomed, thats not to say the miners couldnt have won, or salvaged a sizable piece of the industry but with Scargill leading the charge we were knackered from day one.

What vote rigging?

 

[coley]

What vote rigging?

What vote rigging?

50.50 Northumberland voted 49% 51% against and that was only achieved by ignoring the mechanics vote, but even without a clear mandate scargill was going to have us out, therin lies the seeds of our defeat, by no means were we unanimous or even solidly behind the strike.

 

[butchersapron]

Sorry, i'm not following you - can you explain exactly what you mean and what vote rigging went on?

 

[coley]

Sorry, i'm not following you - can you explain exactly what you mean and what vote rigging went on?

The NUM vote in Northumberland should have included the mechanics branch but as they voted overwhelmingly against the strike their vote was excluded from the final count, even so they still had a marginal vote against, so they organised branch meetings (poorly advertised except for the chosen ones) where on a show of hands it was decided that even though the vote was marginally against a strike, the margin was so thin we were 'duty bound' to come out in support of the other areas.
The tactic of using 'poorly attended' branch meetings to decide on the course and progress of the strike was also widely used during the strike.

 

[butchersapron]

Who excluded the mechanics? How many of them were there? Did people really not know about branch meetings at that time-during the early days of what was such a significant fight? Was the 'overturning' by a show of hands constitutional?

 

[coley]

Who excluded the mechanics? How many of them were there? Did people really not know about branch meetings at that time-during the early days of what was such a significant fight? Was the 'overturning' by a show of hands constitutional?

All done in smokey back rooms and you didnt ask to many questions if you wanted your tyres etc left alone, there was a vote in june 84 by the biggest branch (Ellington) to return to work, this was overturned by the other branches in a series of hastily convened 'special meetings' of the other branches

 

[ViolentPanda]

No he's not. He tells it like it was.

He tells a version.

 

[xes]

What has any of this bullshit got to do with hating the police? There was once a good discussion to be had over what is wrong with the police force we have, but now it's gone all "urban75" and about as anal as any porn star could handle.

 

[butchersapron]

All done in smokey back rooms and you didnt ask to many questions if you wanted your tyres etc left alone, there was a vote in june 84 by the biggest branch (Ellington) to return to work, this was overturned by the other branches in a series of hastily convened 'special meetings' of the other branches

Yeah but any progress on answering my questions?

 

[Streathamite]

I wasn't disputing that. I was expressing my distaste for middle-class pseudo-anarchist tosspots such as Steathamite, Charlie Gilmour and their ilk, who imagine they are doing something brave by chanting "scum" at a line of ordinary coppers, while lacking the faintest conception of the mechanisms that ensure they can do so without getting their silly heads caved in.

if you think I'm ANY sort of anarchist, that only goes to show how delusional, ill-informed and downright ignorant you are. better luck next time, eh?

 

[Streathamite]

Shurely 'master debater'?

badoom-TISH!

 

[Streathamite]

Class? I dont know why people get so bothered by it, every society has its 'class system' communist, capitalism, ones as bad as the other, as for your other question? people parking illegally in disabled bays gets right up me nose.

then you are a very strange sort of socialist indeed

 

[coley]

if you think I'm ANY sort of anarchist, that only goes to show how delusional, ill-informed and downright ignorant you are. better luck next time, eh?

Nowt personal, it was the remark not the named individuals that I found amusing.

 

[Proper Tidy]

He isn't a socialist. He's just a chap from a former mining community where attaching yourself to the s word still has some traction.

 

[Streathamite]

I see....

 

[coley]

then you are a very strange sort of socialist indeed

Class is too fluid (as VP points out) these days are bankers a 'class' or people who work in the city? I can see individuals and corporations or companies as the 'enemy' but not a clearly defined 'class'

 

[Proper Tidy]

Class was fluid 50, 100, 150 years ago too

 

[coley]

He isn't a socialist. He's just a chap from a former mining community where attaching yourself to the s word still has some traction.

Rubbish, around here describing yourself as a socialist puts you in the age of the dinoasaur, no traction whatsoever, even the local labour party avoids the word like the plague

 

[coley]

Class was fluid 50, 100, 150 years ago too

It was a lot more clearly defined and there was the issue of deference and forelock tugging, and even 50 years ago it was hard for the working classes to become 'upwardly mobile' when I was a young'n people who had phones were considered 'middle class'

 

[Proper Tidy]

It was a lot more clearly defined and there was the issue of deference and forelock tugging, and even 50 years ago it was hard for the working classes to become 'upwardly mobile' when I was a young'n people who had phones were considered 'middle class'

Social mobility was significantly higher fifty years ago ie class was more fluid.

All that has changed is the social signifiers of class.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Rubbish, around here describing yourself as a socialist puts you in the age of the dinoasaur, no traction whatsoever, even the local labour party avoids the word like the plague

So why do you call yourself a socialist? Perhaps you could expand on which 'values' you mean.

Where is around here?

 

[Mr.Bishie]

It was a lot more clearly defined and there was the issue of deference and forelock tugging, and even 50 years ago it was hard for the working classes to become 'upwardly mobile' when I was a young'n people who had phones were considered 'middle class'

The folk i saw with these mobile phone things on the estates, definitely weren't middle class.