Hamas + Fatah to make Unity government. Finally some good news...

[ska invita]

If this is true its good news - recent weeks have seen the Palestinians engaged in a mini civil war

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh said Monday his militant Hamas government will resign in the coming days - a formality that should clear the way for a new coalition with the Fatah movement.

Haniyeh acknowledged, however, that last week's power sharing deal between the two sides left key issues unresolved - most notably control over the security forces.

Those issues could still cause the deal to unravel, but Haniyeh said in a televised address Monday that both sides were committed to the agreement to bring an end to the bloody infighting that has plagued Gaza in recent months.

"All Palestinians have won in this agreement," he said.

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/world/16680951.htm

Can the Palestinians finally get their shit together here? LEts hope so.

 

[Aldebaran]

They made a dramatic big show of it live on TV when they made the deal at Mecca. You only had to look at the desinterested faces of the members listening to the speaches of the others, to see through the facade.
Still, better this then nothing and to put on that show in Mecca of all places to made The Big Impact on the masses has also many political risks in case this - again - doesn't stand.

 

[moono]

It's a useful front to try to expose the financial terrorism of the US and the EU for what it is- Islamophobic.

At worst it may bring the three idiot demands of the Quartet into the spotlight, ie;

Recognise your oppressors and their right to your country

Adhere to illegal past agreements as interpreted by your oppressors

Cease to defend yourselves.

The American/Zionists have got to try to sell these to the world whilst continuing to be observed as they collectively punish Palestine.

 

[ska invita]

It looks as of the US won't recognise the UNity government according to the report:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/826449.html

 

[moono]

Well, they're consistently malignant, I'll grant them that.

 

[TomUS]

I hope they can really form a gov. I'm afraid though that some elements of Hamas are so extreme, the whole thing may fall apart. Comments from some Hamas officials following the agreement:

Nizar Rayyan, a senior Hamas leader in Gaza: "We will never recognise Israel. There is nothing called Israel," he said. "We, in the Hamas movement, will not abide by anything."

Hamas spokesman Esmail Rudwan said: "The recognition is not an option at all, is not discussable."

http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/07/02/10/10103217.html

 

[Dandred]

Well if some group of people invaded the US would you recognise them????

 

[moono]

'Recognition' is a point for negotiation, something to be earned, not a gift and not the product of extortion.

 

[TAE]

It's a useful front to try to expose the financial terrorism of the US and the EU for what it is- Islamophobic.

 

[moono]

OK, small potatoes , but still useful. Congress has already put the block on $83mn to Abbas for his 'security' force, just because of this new association with Hamas.

 

[moono]

LMFSocksO;

Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas delivered a defiant message Saturday to a senior U.S. envoy, saying that the world would have to learn to live with a new coalition between his Fatah movement and the Islamic militant Hamas, an alliance which has raised concerns in Washington.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/826965.html

That's what they get for cutting his $83m. Dumb Islamophobic shits.

 

[TomUS]

Well if some group of people invaded the US would you recognise them????

Given their circumstances & the history of the conflict & the fact that it happened 60 years ago, yes I think I would be realistic enough to recognize them or at least to indicate that recognition is possible as a result of negotiations. I don't think I'd retain the idea in my founding document that holy war & the death of my opponents is the only solution to the conflict. Nor do I think I would say things like:

"There is nothing called Israel,...."We, in the Hamas movement, will not abide by anything."

"The recognition is not an option at all, is not discussable."

 

[moono]

The current Israeli administration has done absolutely nothing which deserves 'recognition' in the eyes of Hamas, other than recognition as a brute and fascist regime concerned primarily with beating, imprisoning and killing Palestinians whilst 'annexing' their land.

Hamas are correct in refusing to accept defeat, correct in scorning Zionist claims to Palestinian property and assets and correct in perceiving 'previous agreements' as worthless for Palestinians.

 

[TAE]

Well if some group of people invaded the US would you recognise them????

A group of people did invade north america, but that was a few hundred years ago.

Which brings up two relevant questions:

Why does anyone recognise the US?
If Israel holds on to this land for two centuries, should everyone recognise them then?

 

[moono]

The slaughter of the indigenous Americans was pre-United Nations.

No, Israel is in breach of even the Resolution ( 194) confirming UN membership.

 

[moono]

Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, says that he has agreed with George Bush, the US president, to shun a Palestinian unity government unless it accepts international demands on policy towards Israel.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/3E620994-2948-4CF2-8CF5-CF941C35A057.htm

Right then, here we go with 'the demands'.

Firstly though, what does 'international demands' mean ?

 

[TAE]

The slaughter of the indigenous Americans was pre-United Nations.

No, Israel is in breach of even the Resolution ( 194) confirming UN membership.

So this whole thing is a UN issue? Then the Hamas government should have no problem recognising Israel in the borders which the UN recognises?

 

[TAE]

Firstly though, what does 'international demands' mean ?

Normally it just means two or three country's wishes (US/UK/etc).

 

[moono]

TAE;

So this whole thing is a UN issue? Then the Hamas government should have no problem recognising Israel in the borders which the UN recognises?

It's no longer that cut and dried, is it. Resolutions following the Partition Resolution, 181, have moved the goalposts. Not that the indigenous populations agreed with 181 in the first place.

Where are Israel's borders now ? Still with Resolution 181 according to this , pro-Israel, expert;

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/world/israelborders.php

Normally it just means two or three country's wishes (US/UK/etc).

Lol. Just about any State that has raped the Middle East and might have to pay reparations.

 

[TAE]

So do you think Hamas should recognise Israel according to 181 borders and conditions ?

 

[moono]

I would, and I think they have already made tacit recognition of the Green Line. Of course, the Zionists have no intention of acknowledging this tacit recognition. They will demand that Hamas lick their boots and then they will find an excuse to continue killing them after that. That's nationalist Zionism.

Hamas' best bet, imo, is to continue playing the political game without killing any Israeli civilians. That brings them a great deal of kudos, as does successfully defending themselves against Zionist stormtroopers. In time, if they can resist in the face of further 'Gaza beach type' atrocity and goading, any State associated with Israeli fascism will find that the dirt is rubbing off. It's not much of a prospect, but then time is long.

Because time is long, and because they understand that, I don't expect Hamas to concede even one grain of Palestinian sand.

Supposing that the Zionists did respect their own legal borders ? I can't even imagine them complying. The ideology depends upon expansion and land theft.

What do you think ?

 

[nino_savatte]

Single state: the only solution. Trouble is, selling that one to the nationalist Zionists (aka The Sons of Jabotinsky).

Then again, the idea of states really bugs me...they're an outdated concept that suits no one but the ruling classes.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: "The current Israeli Administration has done nothing in the eyes of HAMAS..." HAMAS is an illegal enetity by their own definition according to both THEIR own [PA] law as well as International Law. Ergo, they deserve no recognition from anyone. I find it interesting [as always] how you frame HAMAS as some sort of freedom fighting force. Wasn't Gaza evacuated by Israel and then ceded almost 2 years ago? IS not the HAMAS Charter still in unabridged existence? The very same compendium of race hate that spawned such gems as "kill all Jews, whereever they be," and "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion isan authentic document?"

Really though, the people here must not be keeping abreast of the developments here [but to theri credit they change second by second] because HAMAS has already just about scuttled the agreement enraging both Saudi and Egyptian mediators. As an earlier poster mentioned, it is about ultimate control of the Security Forces. Fatah still has 17 fully functional and separate factions and HAMAS has at least 3.

In the end it comes down to power. Ceding control of the Security Apparattus is ceding the actual power on the ground and do not believe HAMAS OR Fatah will be willing to do s anytime soon.


Moono [again]: "Recognition is a point of negotiation." No, no, no...IT is a PRErequisite. Fatah and Israel, and the US for their two American cents are demanding that HAMAS obey International Law and accept previously ahreed to points [i.e. the very existence of a Zionist State called Israel." The PA signed off on this formally in 94. 13 years later HAMAS would like to imagine that the agreement never existed.


Moono, I recognise your youth so I will try to make this as simple as possible,. An entity cannot renegotiate a binding settlement. IF HAMAS accepts the titile of the national representative of the "Palestinian People" then it too must accept all those previous contracts and treaties signed by previous national represntatives. You cannot go into office and just wipe the board clean because you do not like the cards already dealt.

Israel's existence, no matter the sentiment one holds for the nation, is not a debatable subject. Not only was it ratified into existence by the UN, but it has built and supported an infrastructure and adhered to [yes I am serious] to those points of International Law that are NOT debatable [meaning those points for which a clear precedence does exist, and/or ruling...not Briefs, and Un Resolutions whicvh are in of themselves not parcel to International LAw BUT sometimes used to manipulate it. As such, Israel has earned its right to sit at the International table.

HAMAS on the other hand, while being democratically elected, is by its own admission and paperwork, a terrorist entity [although their terminology certainly does not include the word terrorist]. Having existed prior to election with a well armed and trained militia it negated its right to take part in any democratic processes. Yet Fatah, in power at the time of the last election, new that exclusion would lead straight to a civil war that they could not hope to win due Fatah's ineptness and corruption.

Fatah instead counted on the US and Israel to deal magic get ot jail cards, and/or a HAMAS iniated event [i.e. terror attack] that would turn the populace against HAMAS. Neither actually happened and the end result is that we now have an Internationally illegal entity in charge of the national affairs of an envisioned state and not many idea about what to do about it.

 

[nino_savatte]

Israel's existence, no matter the sentiment one holds for the nation, is not a debatable subject.

Oh but I'm afraid it is a "debatable subject" as is the nature of all states. You may not want the subject of Israel to be debated but you'd be insisting on some form of discursive control rather than discussion. Quelle surprise.

 

[rachamim18]

Dandred: I think you need to go back to the books. No Jew EVER invaded the land alternatively called Israel and "Palestine." There have been continuous Jewish habitacion there for 4500 odd years. When Jews lost their right to self determination in their last war with the Romans [Hadrian], many were exiled and/or sold into bondage. Still communities remained.

In the Modern Era, Jews began to put the words of their poems, literature, and liturgy into an ideology that espoused the return of the Jewish PEOPLE [as opposed to religion which seems to be some people's misconception] to their ancient homeland.

When this ideology coalesced in the middle of the 19th Century CE/AD, Jews began moving back to the land AND LEGALLY BUYING the land from its LAWFUL OWNERS. The land sold to the Jews was almost always useless [here to fore] scrub or marshland and considered unarable or not worth grazing. Ergo the owners, almost always absentee Turks or Arabs, were happy to sell useless land at highly inflated prices. This persisted until the turn of the century when the Jews began buying land that brought them into near competition with Arabs living nearby.

There was also problems with the concept of land ownership since Arabs did not follow either the Western concept [as did the Jews coming from Europe] OR the Ottoman method [which was becoming close to the Western concept and by 1858 was almost the same].

The point is, no Jews "invaded" any part of the land.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nice narrative, rach...because that's what it is: a version of history with plenty of awkward details edited out. In other words it is mythology.

 

[Grandma Death]

Dandred: I think you need to go back to the books. No Jew EVER invaded the land alternatively called Israel and "Palestine." There have been continuous Jewish habitacion there for 4500 odd years. When Jews lost their right to self determination in their last war with the Romans [Hadrian], many were exiled and/or sold into bondage. Still communities remained.

In the Modern Era, Jews began to put the words of their poems, literature, and liturgy into an ideology that espoused the return of the Jewish PEOPLE [as opposed to religion which seems to be some people's misconception] to their ancient homeland.

When this ideology coalesced in the middle of the 19th Century CE/AD, Jews began moving back to the land AND LEGALLY BUYING the land from its LAWFUL OWNERS. The land sold to the Jews was almost always useless [here to fore] scrub or marshland and considered unarable or not worth grazing. Ergo the owners, almost always absentee Turks or Arabs, were happy to sell useless land at highly inflated prices. This persisted until the turn of the century when the Jews began buying land that brought them into near competition with Arabs living nearby.

There was also problems with the concept of land ownership since Arabs did not follow either the Western concept [as did the Jews coming from Europe] OR the Ottoman method [which was becoming close to the Western concept and by 1858 was almost the same].

The point is, no Jews "invaded" any part of the land.

Get back to the stone you crawled from under you lying cunt.

Provide proof and back up your claims or fuck off.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Get back to the stone you crawled from under you lying cunt.

Provide proof and back up your claims or fuck off.

Has he provided any evidence for his previous claims, or is he still making excuses?

Take it from me, you'll never see his "proof". He's pulled this one before.

 

[Grandma Death]

Has he provided any evidence for his previous claims, or is he still making excuses?

Take it from me, you'll never see his "proof". He's pulled this one before.

He's been making excuses since stating the original claims-he wont even publicly retract.

He's full of fucking shit and liar.

 

[moono]

Aye. Academically dishonest coward.