Game of Thrones Season 7 - Monday Morning Torrenters Thread

[DexterTCN]

Oh yes, you're another one who jerks of over the rape scenes aren't you?....

 

[mojo pixy]

All Sansa's life, no matter how much she loves John, she's been considered and treated as a more rightful heir than him. She's lived in Kings Landing at court, and she's been engaged / married to a prince and a lord. (edit: two lords). I can see why she'd argue with him.

 

[belboid]

I have to agree about the stopping in Dorne point. Sunspear is literally on the way from Mereen to Dragonstone by sea, why did they not do the chatty-planning in Dorne, then sail to Dragonstone? I really expected Dany to begin s.7 in Dorne. They clearly stopped there on the way anyway .. and didn't pick up the troops when they picked up the great-and-goods? Nah, makes no sense.

The having-to-sail-back-past-Kings-Landing bit is pretty contrived. There are other odd contrivances as outlined in the article, but this was one I noticed myself while watching ep.2

That's possibly the worst example. The others could largely have been explained away by a short scene, but no. Probably even Dragonstone could be explained away, tho it would have been harder.

Actually, no, the Euron bit was worst, that was utterly nonsensical and we didn't need a Forbes article to tell us why.

 

[belboid]

All Sansa's life, no matter how much she loves John, she's been considered and treated as a more rightful heir than him. She's lived in Kings Landing at court, and she's been engaged / married to a prince and a lord. (edit: two lords). I can see why she'd argue with him.

But never in public. She is meant to have learnt from Cersei.

 

[Me76]

So is it that she considers herself more rightly to be the queen of the north?

Actually, as I'm thinking about it, it makes more sense. She was the one that saw cersei doing her evilness, she saw Ramsey and if it wasn't for her the battle of the bastards would have been lost. And she is the rightful next Stark. He's a bastard after all.

But still, I'm on the don't undermine him in public. But then it gives little finger a route to get in while jons going to have sex with his sister.

You may have noticed I'm thinking while typing here.

 

[mojo pixy]

She is a stupid, stupid little girl .. her own words, and not that long ago.

 

[Fez909]

great article.

Nope

I had completely thought all of those points already.

Edit, except for the sailing out of the way thing cos I haven't really got the map in my head properly.

I have to agree about the stopping in Dorne point. Sunspear is literally on the way from Mereen to Dragonstone by sea, why did they not do the chatty-planning in Dorne, then sail to Dragonstone? I really expected Dany to begin s.7 in Dorne. They clearly stopped there on the way anyway .. and didn't pick up the troops when they picked up the great-and-goods? Nah, makes no sense.

The having-to-sail-back-past-Kings-Landing bit is pretty contrived. There are other odd contrivances as outlined in the article, but this was one I noticed myself while watching ep.2

No one who isn't a book wanker knows where things are in relation to each other. I bet a good propotion of book wankers don't know/care, either. It's irrelevant and can easily be ignored and not ruin the story.

Even if not ignored, wars are not decided on choosing the most efficient route. Being on her home turf and having her potential allies come to her puts her in a stronger position for negotiations than if she'd been in Dorne, or wherever else. And there's always the risk of being killed off when in foreign lands.

Imagine she'd spoken out of turn while a guest of the Tyrells or the Sands or whatever. They could've just had her killed and then what? Yeah, the unsullen army might attack or whatever, but why? They're only there for the Queen of Dragons. If she's gone, they're a long way from home with no mission. If one of her future allies killer her on her home turf, they'd never make it out alive, making it much less likely to happen.

Regarding Jon and Sansa, it's been said upthread already why she might speak out of turn in front of the other Lords of the North. She's feeling more powerful and thinks she can do this. And not only that, Jon's not actually a king. It's more like a rebellion at the minute. Jon is Lenin in exhile at the current time, not Stalin in power.

The crossbow thing is meh. So what if Cersi is impressed by it. It doesn't mean it will successfully defend them from dragons. It could just be the Maesters showing the best they've got to keep the Queen happy. Lots of new weapons are demoed in non-realistic ways and I'm sure Field Marshalls of armies worldwide are bowled over by their apparent unassailable effectiveness. But if they really were as devastating as the weapons manufacturers say, no armies would lose ever. But one has to. At least one. Sometimes it's lose/lose.

Dany being a dick to the Eunoch is a writing problem? She's been a dick for ages. Yeah yeah, she freed some slaves. But only because she's power mad, not because she's Princess Diana. It benefits her to be seen as a woman of the people. Especially when she had literally no one as an ally.

She's just reverting to family form. Targarians are cunts. She wants to be queen. Thinks she deserves to be queen - based on what, I don't know? So of course she's gonna exert a bit of power over some minions. That's what powerful people do! No bad writing here.

But the final point the Forbes article makes is a good one. It's not believable that Euron would find the ships, board the right one, and destroy them all without fucking his own fleet up. But it's television! If that's the worst criticism they've got (because the others are unfounded, IMO) then this series isn't doing too badly.

And don't forget, GRRM is intimately involved in the writing. It's not as if D&D are making things up and then GRRM is backfilling the plot in his book to keep consistency. He's told them what should happen. He's part of the screenwriting team. He writes a "bible" that spells out how each season should go. He writes entires scenes. the TV series is his vision. It's just interpreted by a team of people instead of just him. I serious doubt that the motivations of the characters come across that different than how GRRM would have done it given his close involvement.

And, while I've never read the books, I'd also never heard anyone say he's an amazing writer. Very few fantasy writers are. They write good stories, but in terms of quality of dialogue or story arc or whatever else? I've heard he's good. But I'm sure the screenwriting team for HBO are good. As evidenced by the continuing popularity of not just GoT, but pretty much everything HBO put out. Yeah, yeah, I know. Popularity doesn't equal quality. But lots of people who claim to hold the higher ground when it comes to judging artforms such as TV, film etc., do say that HBO puts out quality. Time and time again.

So is GRRM so good that a team of some of the best screenwriters money can buy have been put in the shade? I doubt it.

 

[belboid]

Nope



No one who isn't a book wanker knows where things are in relation to each other. I bet a good propotion of book wankers don't know/care, either. It's irrelevant and can easily be ignored and not ruin the story.

Even if not ignored, wars are not decided on choosing the most efficient route. Being on her home turf and having her potential allies come to her puts her in a stronger position for negotiations than if she'd been in Dorne, or wherever else. And there's always the risk of being killed off when in foreign lands.

Imagine she'd spoken out of turn while a guest of the Tyrells or the Sands or whatever. They could've just had her killed and then what? Yeah, the unsullen army might attack or whatever, but why? They're only there for the Queen of Dragons. If she's gone, they're a long way from home with no mission. If one of her future allies killer her on her home turf, they'd never make it out alive, making it much less likely to happen.

Regarding Jon and Sansa, it's been said upthread already why she might speak out of turn in front of the other Lords of the North. She's feeling more powerful and thinks she can do this. And not only that, Jon's not actually a king. It's more like a rebellion at the minute. Jon is Lenin in exhile at the current time, not Stalin in power.

The crossbow thing is meh. So what if Cersi is impressed by it. It doesn't mean it will successfully defend them from dragons. It could just be the Maesters showing the best they've got to keep the Queen happy. Lots of new weapons are demoed in non-realistic ways and I'm sure Field Marshalls of armies worldwide are bowled over by their apparent unassailable effectiveness. But if they really were as devastating as the weapons manufacturers say, no armies would lose ever. But one has to. At least one. Sometimes it's lose/lose.

Dany being a dick to the Eunoch is a writing problem? She's been a dick for ages. Yeah yeah, she freed some slaves. But only because she's power mad, not because she's Princess Diana. It benefits her to be seen as a woman of the people. Especially when she had literally no one as an ally.

She's just reverting to family form. Targarians are cunts. She wants to be queen. Thinks she deserves to be queen - based on what, I don't know? So of course she's gonna exert a bit of power over some minions. That's what powerful people do! No bad writing here.

But the final point the Forbes article makes is a good one. It's not believable that Euron would find the ships, board the right one, and destroy them all without fucking his own fleet up. But it's television! If that's the worst criticism they've got (because the others are unfounded, IMO) then this series isn't doing too badly.

And don't forget, GRRM is intimately involved in the writing. It's not as if D&D are making things up and then GRRM is backfilling the plot in his book to keep consistency. He's told them what should happen. He's part of the screenwriting team. He writes a "bible" that spells out how each season should go. He writes entires scenes. the TV series is his vision. It's just interpreted by a team of people instead of just him. I serious doubt that the motivations of the characters come across that different than how GRRM would have done it given his close involvement.

And, while I've never read the books, I'd also never heard anyone say he's an amazing writer. Very few fantasy writers are. They write good stories, but in terms of quality of dialogue or story arc or whatever else? I've heard he's good. But I'm sure the screenwriting team for HBO are good. As evidenced by the continuing popularity of not just GoT, but pretty much everything HBO put out. Yeah, yeah, I know. Popularity doesn't equal quality. But lots of people who claim to hold the higher ground when it comes to judging artforms such as TV, film etc., do say that HBO puts out quality. Time and time again.

So is GRRM so good that a team of some of the best screenwriters money can buy have been put in the shade? I doubt it.

I think you missed the entire point of the article. It's not that it claims he is a great writer, not even a great writer if dialogue, it's that it was well plotted, in a way that progressed logically and in character. These latest developments don't. Maybe in the books he can add the explanations, but they absolutely were missing from the show.

 

[Fez909]

I think you missed the entire point of the article. It's not that it claims he is a great writer, not even a great writer if dialogue, it's that it was well plotted, in a way that progressed logically and in character. These latest developments don't. Maybe in the books he can add the explanations, but they absolutely were missing from the show.

I don't think I did miss it. In fact, my entire post was, I thought, an explanation for each of the actions that the journo took exception with.

 

[mojo pixy]

No one who isn't a book wanker knows where things are in relation to each other.

I've not read a single one of the books, not even a page of one - but I know how to google image search. Book wanker, definitely not, Map wanker, OK maybe.

 

[Fez909]

I've not read a single one of the books, not even a page of one - but I know how to google image search. Book wanker, definitely not, Map wanker, OK maybe.

But how many people are looking at maps of Westeros and going, "hang on...militarily, that doesn't make sense" (even though it does, for reasons I've explained above), "and so now GoT is an incorehent mess".

I'll tell you. It's about 50 people. All on the internet. The other 8,899,950 people don't even know, never mind care.

I count myself among the majority, for what it's worth

 

[DotCommunist]

The crossbow thing is meh. So what if Cersi is impressed by it. It doesn't mean it will successfully defend them from dragons. It could just be the Maesters showing the best they've got to keep the Queen happy. Lots of new weapons are demoed in non-realistic ways and I'm sure Field Marshalls of armies worldwide are bowled over by their apparent unassailable effectiveness. But if they really were as devastating as the weapons manufacturers say, no armies would lose ever. But one has to. At least one. Sometimes it's lose/lose.

I think thats meant to be a solitary example of the ballista, nobody is hitting a dragon in flight with one shot are they. So there will be lots of them, a hail of dragon slaying arrows. Not that I expect even 40 of them giving it large could do more than 'area denial' for dragons. And what happens when they fly up high then come stright down on your position while you are reloading? Breathing fire on you? Its not going to go well for the crews of the ballitas is it.

 

[fishfinger]

I think thats meant to be a solitary example of the ballista, nobody is hitting a dragon in flight with one shot are they. So there will be lots of them, a hail of dragon slaying arrows. Not that I expect even 40 of them giving it large could do more than 'area denial' for dragons. And what happens when they fly up high then come stright down on your position while you are reloading? Breathing fire on you? Its not going to go well for the crews of the ballitas is it.

The dragons could eat really hot curries, enabling them to drop napalm from their arses.

 

[Fez909]

I think thats meant to be a solitary example of the ballista, nobody is hitting a dragon in flight with one shot are they. So there will be lots of them, a hail of dragon slaying arrows. Not that I expect even 40 of them giving it large could do more than 'area denial' for dragons. And what happens when they fly up high then come stright down on your position while you are reloading? Breathing fire on you? Its not going to go well for the crews of the ballitas is it.

I agree. They take so long to reload, and they need to be so accurate, that they're unlikely to be effective against 3 dragons.

Maybe 1 dragon, with enough crossbows, and they could take it out. 3 in simultaneous attack mode would do them all over, though.

 

[belboid]

I don't think I did miss it. In fact, my entire post was, I thought, an explanation for each of the actions that the journo took exception with.

I don't think you have, I'm afraid (except on the ballista', that ones fair enough). I think you've come up with some, sometimes convoluted, rationalisations that don't entirely work. Had there been decent explanatory scenes they could work, but otherwise they don't.

Tho the argument about Sansa would never work. Even if you think you are the rightful ruler, you don't have those arguments in front of all your other lords. This is not a communist government in waiting, it is feudal motherfuckers for whom the rightful hierarchy is vital.

 

[Fez909]

I don't think you have, I'm afraid (except on the ballista', that ones fair enough). I think you've come up with some, sometimes convoluted, rationalisations that don't entirely work. Had there been decent explanatory scenes they could work, but otherwise they don't.

Tho the argument about Sansa would never work. Even if you think you are the rightful ruler, you don't have those arguments in front of all your other lords. This is not a communist government in waiting, it is feudal motherfuckers for whom the rightful hierarchy is vital.

But is Jon even the rightful heir? He's not the son of the previous king. He's the bastard of the hand of the King, that's all. Sansa arguably has more right to the throne than him.

 

[fishfinger]

But is Jon even the rightful heir? He's not the son of the previous king. He's the bastard of the hand of the King, that's all. Sansa arguably has more right to the throne than him.

He's not Ned's bastard but only Bran knows that.

 

[belboid]

But is Jon even the rightful heir? He's not the son of the previous king. He's the bastard of the hand of the King, that's all. Sansa arguably has more right to the throne than him.

He's the King of the North. He has been proclaimed as much, and that's what matters. That is the order of things.

 

[DotCommunist]

on the point about danys acting villainous and autocratic- She had the slavers of Mereen crucified al the way up a long road. The scene ended with her smiling on the ramparts as screams of anguish floated in the background. OK so they deserved it, but she's way past normal people thinking now, she's the mother of dragons, breaker of chains and all that one. Instrumental cruelty and all. The self belief is there. And why not? fire and magic can't kill me, I've got three dragons and my cause is righteous.

 

[belboid]

on the point about danys acting villainous and autocratic- She had the slavers of Mereen crucified al the way up a long road. The scene ended with her smiling on the ramparts as screams of anguish floated in the background. OK so they deserved it, but she's way past normal people thinking now, she's the mother of dragons, breaker of chains and all that one. Instrumental cruelty and all. The self belief is there. And why not? fire and magic can't kill me, I've got three dragons and my cause is righteous.

That's Oleanna's argument. But Dani has been shown as siding with Tyrion's argument so far.

This is the problem- there are arguments for almost all the actions (except for Euron's magic ships), but they haven't been shown in the show. Whereas previously they would have been.

 

[mojo pixy]

But how many people are looking at maps of Westeros and going, "hang on...militarily, that doesn't make sense" (even though it does, for reasons I've explained above), "and so now GoT is an incorehent mess".

I'll tell you. It's about 50 people. All on the internet. The other 8,899,950 people don't even know, never mind care.

I count myself among the majority, for what it's worth

I don't care what people are thinking, who haven't looked at the world GRRM designed, because when it comes to the internal logic of this fictional world they clearly don't care what is consistent or rational within the world itself.

Like, I do know it's fiction. But as a consumer of fiction I do at least appreciate consistency and internal logic. It helps my immersion and my enjoyment.

I believe this is what most writers aim to achieve. It's called good writing. Something salaried TV scriptwriters working to a deadline and not bound by the rules of a world they didn't invent might conceivably not bother with.

 

[mojo pixy]

Also, while about 50 people may have looked at maps of westeros and essos (and I bet it's more than that) there are millions of 'book wankers' who likely feel similar about irrational and inconsistent, jarring plot points.

For the literally dozens of trump-esque TV viewers who watch blankly and uncritically, I can see why this matters little.

 

[Gromit]

But is Jon even the rightful heir? He's not the son of the previous king. He's the bastard of the hand of the King, that's all. Sansa arguably has more right to the throne than him.

There hadn't been a King of the North since Targaryn times.
Rob had it foisted upon him as the Starks were seen as the most noblest of Northern families.
Jon had it foisted upon him in part because of his Stark blood but also I feel because he'd been in a shit load battles and made it through them. Kings are made by strength of arms, their ability in battle and as generals... or simply by having a large enough army to go I'm king, anyone want to dispute that, go ahead punk, make my day, do you feel lucky?

 

[mojo pixy]

I await the random kraken we've never seen or heard of, that appears in the final episode with the face of Theon Greyjoy and pulls down the walls of kings landing

 

[SpookyFrank]

Nope



No one who isn't a book wanker knows where things are in relation to each other. I bet a good propotion of book wankers don't know/care, either. It's irrelevant and can easily be ignored and not ruin the story.

Even if not ignored, wars are not decided on choosing the most efficient route. Being on her home turf and having her potential allies come to her puts her in a stronger position for negotiations than if she'd been in Dorne, or wherever else. And there's always the risk of being killed off when in foreign lands.

Imagine she'd spoken out of turn while a guest of the Tyrells or the Sands or whatever. They could've just had her killed and then what? Yeah, the unsullen army might attack or whatever, but why? They're only there for the Queen of Dragons. If she's gone, they're a long way from home with no mission. If one of her future allies killer her on her home turf, they'd never make it out alive, making it much less likely to happen.

Regarding Jon and Sansa, it's been said upthread already why she might speak out of turn in front of the other Lords of the North. She's feeling more powerful and thinks she can do this. And not only that, Jon's not actually a king. It's more like a rebellion at the minute. Jon is Lenin in exhile at the current time, not Stalin in power.

The crossbow thing is meh. So what if Cersi is impressed by it. It doesn't mean it will successfully defend them from dragons. It could just be the Maesters showing the best they've got to keep the Queen happy. Lots of new weapons are demoed in non-realistic ways and I'm sure Field Marshalls of armies worldwide are bowled over by their apparent unassailable effectiveness. But if they really were as devastating as the weapons manufacturers say, no armies would lose ever. But one has to. At least one. Sometimes it's lose/lose.

Dany being a dick to the Eunoch is a writing problem? She's been a dick for ages. Yeah yeah, she freed some slaves. But only because she's power mad, not because she's Princess Diana. It benefits her to be seen as a woman of the people. Especially when she had literally no one as an ally.

She's just reverting to family form. Targarians are cunts. She wants to be queen. Thinks she deserves to be queen - based on what, I don't know? So of course she's gonna exert a bit of power over some minions. That's what powerful people do! No bad writing here.

But the final point the Forbes article makes is a good one. It's not believable that Euron would find the ships, board the right one, and destroy them all without fucking his own fleet up. But it's television! If that's the worst criticism they've got (because the others are unfounded, IMO) then this series isn't doing too badly.

And don't forget, GRRM is intimately involved in the writing. It's not as if D&D are making things up and then GRRM is backfilling the plot in his book to keep consistency. He's told them what should happen. He's part of the screenwriting team. He writes a "bible" that spells out how each season should go. He writes entires scenes. the TV series is his vision. It's just interpreted by a team of people instead of just him. I serious doubt that the motivations of the characters come across that different than how GRRM would have done it given his close involvement.

And, while I've never read the books, I'd also never heard anyone say he's an amazing writer. Very few fantasy writers are. They write good stories, but in terms of quality of dialogue or story arc or whatever else? I've heard he's good. But I'm sure the screenwriting team for HBO are good. As evidenced by the continuing popularity of not just GoT, but pretty much everything HBO put out. Yeah, yeah, I know. Popularity doesn't equal quality. But lots of people who claim to hold the higher ground when it comes to judging artforms such as TV, film etc., do say that HBO puts out quality. Time and time again.

So is GRRM so good that a team of some of the best screenwriters money can buy have been put in the shade? I doubt it.

Both Sansa and Dany's potentially dodgy decisions can be put down at least partly to hubris. Dragonstone has obvious symbolic resonance as both Dany's birthplace and the place where Aegon's conquest began. After how many setbacks on her journey back to Westeros of course she's going to want to do things her way, and put herself in a spot where she's obviously in charge of everyone else in her potentially ragged alliance.

As for Sansa, she was caught off guard by Jon's elevation to king o' north in the first place and it put the kibosh on her own ascendancy, which by that point she'd have felt she deserved. She sought out Jon in the first place to further her own agenda, which clearly went beyond revenge against the Boltons. Sansa is clever yes but she's always had something of the spoilt brat about her, an entitlement that hanging out with the Lannisters and being queen-in-waiting has only amplified. There will be part of her that can only see Jon as a bastard child who shoud be way below her in the pecking order. She also has little regard for northerners in general and never seemed comfortable being one herself, hence the row about the fate of two families she doesn't really give a shit about, beyond a still-unquenched desire to exact revenge for her own mistreatment.

For me Sansa's arc in the show is a coherent one, probably more so than it would have been if they'd followed the books. Without spoilering them, in the books Sansa is largely used as a maguffin by other characters, and isn't given the chance to gain any agency for herself. By giving her something to do, the TV show has created an opportunity to explore her character, which may have been changed by her various traumas but which still connects clearly to the girl we first meet in season one. At this point she can go one of two ways, but turning even more dark and ending up on the Ramsay-Cersei spectrum seems the most likely. Either way, I'm more interested in her than in Jon Snow right now.

 

[belboid]

Also, while about 50 people may have looked at maps of westeros and essos (and I bet it's more than that) there are millions of 'book wankers' who likely feel similar about irrational and inconsistent, jarring plot points.

For the literally dozens of trump-esque TV viewers who watch blankly and uncritically, I can see why this matters little.

Both episodes so far have made a big point of showing the key cast drawing and studying maps of the seven kingdoms. Maps and the layout of the nation are very obviously central to everything. For one (or more) if the writers to go 'oh well, who cares, no one has been paying attention anyway' is just insulting to, well, everyone.

 

[Gromit]

I don't care what people are thinking, who haven't looked at the world GRRM designed, because when it comes to the internal logic of this fictional world they clearly don't care what is consistent or rational within the world itself.

Like, I do know it's fiction. But as a consumer of fiction I do at least appreciate consistency and internal logic.

 

[maomao]

Landing in Dorne first would be silly. Could be a trap. Dragonstone is bang opposite King's Landing and the perfect place to plot up before launching an invasion.

 

[belboid]

Landing in Dorne first would be silly. Could be a trap. Dragonstone is bang opposite King's Landing and the perfect place to plot up before launching an invasion.

Except they're not invading they're still getting the gang together. And anything could be a trap. There was no guarantee dragonstone would actually be empty.

It's just very bad writing.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Landing in Dorne first would be silly. Could be a trap. Dragonstone is bang opposite King's Landing and the perfect place to plot up before launching an invasion.

Them sand snakes do have form for stabbing folk in the back after all.