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Fusion may be 100 years away

Tokamak is dead.

Polywell, and maybe Dense Plasma Focus show promise - and crucially, much lower development costs.
 
What worries me a bit about ITER is this bit;

"Some people say it is just a question of inventing a stainless steel which is porous to let these particles through; personally I would have started by inventing this material."

It's a long time since I did Physics A level but I reckon that if you're letting these neutrons through, which presumably would be "hot" alpha particles, that's a lot of high-energy alpha radiation to try and cope with, quite apart from anything else which might be released in the reaction such as gamma radiation. Would you want that anywhere near where you live? i wouldn't.
 
Meltingpot said:
What worries me a bit about ITER is this bit;

"Some people say it is just a question of inventing a stainless steel which is porous to let these particles through; personally I would have started by inventing this material."

It's a long time since I did Physics A level but I reckon that if you're letting these neutrons through, which presumably would be "hot" alpha particles, that's a lot of high-energy alpha radiation to try and cope with, quite apart from anything else which might be released in the reaction such as gamma radiation. Would you want that anywhere near where you live? i wouldn't.
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Nah, neutrons are just that, alpha particles are 2 protons and 2 neutrons. The problem with neutron bombardment is that it tends to 'activate' most materials, finding materials that aren't made radioactive is quite difficult and a test facility for that purpose is part of the original ITER proposal.

At some point in the structure there has to be something to absorb emitted neutrons, one of the ideas to be trialled by ITER is to use a lithium liner. The neutron bombardment generates tritium that can be extracted and used as fuel.
 
Annoying how it's always 50-100 years away. Come on boffins, sort it out. There's loads of hydrogen for fuel.
 
MikeMcc said:
Nah, neutrons are just that, alpha particles are 2 protons and 2 neutrons. The problem with neutron bombardment is that it tends to 'activate' most materials, finding materials that aren't made radioactive is quite difficult and a test facility for that purpose is part of the original ITER proposal.

At some point in the structure there has to be something to absorb emitted neutrons, one of the ideas to be trialled by ITER is to use a lithium liner. The neutron bombardment generates tritium that can be extracted and used as fuel.
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Fair enough, and thanks for the info. I'd really like to see a working fusion reactor in my lifetime but I doubt I will now.
 
If the US or major western states start to get real effects of global warming watch that time scale reduce and watch the funding issue disappear.

I see some real resistance to the production of cheap unlimited energy because it would essentially empower the poor and I'm not sure people are comfortable with that. It would remove many reasons to go to war and therefore defence budgets would be effected.

The lasers at the NIF have produced Neutrons on some of the test firings.
 
It seems to be less of a story than originally reported. The delay is to the experiments with D-T fusion because some components won't be ready for the targetted start date of 2023. ITER will commence operations with the less energetic H-H fusion. D-T fusion is one of the experimental areas that it's being designed to investigate.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/39530
 
if they weren't gold-plating the procurement, it might happen a bit faster and cheaper. They use the World's Most Expensive CAD Package, and you have to prove you have enough licenses for your engineers to even put a bid in on the work...
 
We've already thrown billions at the problem though. There's no guarantee that billions more will solve the problem within a tight time frame (hate that phrase, maybe I should just have said "soon"). It would also be years, maybe even decades, before a commercial fusion reactor could be built and completed even if the technical challenges were overcome.

Others may laugh but if it were me I'd put a small amount of money aside to re-examine and perhaps re-run Fleischmann and Pons's cold fusion experiments from twenty years ago.
 
Even if / when they start getting results from ITER, there is another system to be built before any commercial system is considered. The next project is called DEMO and will aim to actually generate electricity from the system.
 
There was an earlier thread with info about solidstate fusion experiments here.

A major problem appears to be those particle physicists who insist there is no way such a thing could possibly be happening (which is amusingly arrogant since physics itself is not a unified science, but contains flatly incompatible theories). In fact, the theoretical rational should be accessible to the general reader with a good knowledge of chemistry.

Here's a great article in Ground Report from a few months ago. The short version: US Navy researchers are able routinely to demonstrate solidstate devices that emit high-energy charged particles -- strong evidence of solidstate nuclear reactions.
 
Jonti said:
A major problem appears to be those particle physicists who insist there is no way such a thing could possibly be happening (which is amusingly arrogant since physics itself is not a unified science, but contains flatly incompatible theories). In fact, the theoretical rational should be accessible to the general reader with a good knowledge of chemistry.
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You are actualy patronising nuclear physists and there opinions on nuclear physics.:D
 
Jonti said:
I'll patronise you and your spelling next.

Don't say you haven't been warned!
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Bit late for that warning kid. I seem to recall you trying that line when your toys came out the cot and you started squeeling about me posting "psuedoscience" in a global warming thread a few months back. Then like now you seem to be big on opinions short on science.
 
I am sure you understand how meaningful your assessment is to me.

But no, I'm not into being drawn into a personal spat, thanks all the same.
 
Even if an experiment can be made to produce more energy than it takes to run, if it costs so much to build an experimental setup, would it ever be economical as a source of power? Net energy positive fusion is already doable with solar panels and it is closer to economic viability. If fusion reactors are so expensive there will only be say one in europe one in america and one in china they will be just another monopoly and won't empower the poor
 
ITER and the tokamak is far too expensive, yes. If the polywell turns out ok, the projected price will be cheaper even than coal.
 
Jonti said:
I am sure you understand how meaningful your assessment is to me.

But no, I'm not into being drawn into a personal spat, thanks all the same.
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:rolleyes:Thats why you have carried on via PM is it?
Crispy said:
ITER and the tokamak is far too expensive, yes. If the polywell turns out ok, the projected price will be cheaper even than coal.
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Low probability high consaquence type thing. It would take a mountain of weight of off my shoulders if we could rustle up some cheap energy.
 
It's time to get excited, commercial power for the grid could be only 50 years away! They may even have a go at switching on the tokamak in 8 years! The foundations have been laid...

_68881341_68881340.jpg



...and the first component is arriving. Only a million more to come. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23408073
 
ITER is a staggering project. Incredible engineering. Superlatives aren't enough.
But it's a dead end.
 
True, it's way too complicated and massive, it's always good to learn more though. Perhaps we can have a device the size of ITER, but with the simplicity of MAST. I'm still quietly optimistic about Polywell (they've kept so quiet, but the US Navy have kept pumping money into it). Similarly laser inertial confinement seems to be having a few issues and is massive. Z-pinch fusion does seem to have a few supporters as well.
 
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