F1 2017
- Thread starter spitfire
- Start date
Supine
Newt Member
Limejuice
Well-Known Member
It's instructive to check the betting markets. (Bear in mind, though, that the odds aren't a forecast by the bookies, more a reflection of where money is being placed by punters, or odds at which bookies think punters will be attracted.)
At the moment the general odds on a Mercedes Constructor's Championship are 2/5, with 7/4 for any other team to win it.
If you drill down a bit, Red Bull is 5/1 and Ferrari 7/1. So the market - it's very early days - sees Red Bull with a slightly better chance than Ferrari.
1%er
Well-Known Member
I think Mercedes have the best car and the best driver so they should win both championships (baring power-unit problems which look unlikely at this point). I think the big fight will be for 2nd place between Ferrari and Red Bull. We didn't learn much from testing and the first couple of races will give a much clearer picture as to where the cars really are in race trim.
If I were to bet I think I go for a triple, I go Mercedes 1st and then have Ferrari and Red Bull 2nd and 3rd but I place 2 bets and switch 2nd and 3rd place, no idea what the odds would be but I think that would be the best value bet.
If I were to bet I think I go for a triple, I go Mercedes 1st and then have Ferrari and Red Bull 2nd and 3rd but I place 2 bets and switch 2nd and 3rd place, no idea what the odds would be but I think that would be the best value bet.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Was just coming here to post this. "We will not see his like again" is an over-used saying, but its surely an impossibility that someone could again win the F1, MotoGP and the Senior TT titles in a career, never mind within the space of five years.
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
F1 testing round-up: Have Ferrari really got the measure of Mercedes?
An interesting summary of testing. Highlight for me is that the McLaren has never managed more than 11 consecutive flying laps. My god, they're fucked
An interesting summary of testing. Highlight for me is that the McLaren has never managed more than 11 consecutive flying laps. My god, they're fucked
1%er
Well-Known Member
Is fuel saving going to raise its ugly head again
The maximum allowed fuel quantity has increased from 100 kg to 105 kg for this season because of the radical aerodynamic changes (in old money that means they have gone from 135 liters to 142 liters per-race). However early analysis carried out by the teams after the winter testing indicates that some tracks could deteriorate into fuel-saving races.
This season we will see big aerodynamic changes and much wider cars, they will generate more downforce so more drag (around 10% more drag is what I have read), the tyres are wider and drivers are expected to spend more time on full throttle due to the increased mechanical and aerodynamic grip. While top speeds are expected to reduce slightly (because of the higher drag) drivers will spend around 10% more time at full throttle plus faster cornering speed, cars are going to use more fuel. At most races this will not have a major effect but some tracks, Melbourne for example, drivers may well have to spend a lot of time lifting and coasting.
From reading the press it seems that engineers from all the four engine manufacturers were surprised that the fuel consumption is higher than expected and they'd calculated over the winter. If we see it in Melbourne for sure we will also see it at Bahrain and Sochi (3 of the first 4 races), lets hope these fuel heavy tracks are the only ones.
McLaren and Honda
Could this be the last season for Honda in the back of a McLaren? While they have a long-term contract going through to 2024, it is being reported that there is a break clause that could be activated at the end of this season. Last season was a bad start for Honda/McLaren, during testing that only managed 710 laps but this season they did even worse with just 425 laps. Reliability is not the only concern as the power-unit is well down on power also, they are around 20mph slower than other teams on the straights and only Sauber running a 2016 Ferrari engine is slower. They used more engines during the two tests than they will be allowed to use for the whole season and were also running with less power than they did in Abu Dhabi 2016 around 45 to 50 HP less.
The problem seems to be vibrations that are affecting the electrics and shaking the engine to bits and it seems unlikely that Honda will sort these vibrations out before the first race in just 2 weeks time. Alonso's contract is up at the end of the season and he has already said he wants to race in 2018, so I'd guess other teams will be talking to him already, expect to hear about him moving to another team early in the summer
Force India has a new livery
Force India have a new sponsor, they have done a deal with Austrian water technology firm Best Water Technology. The VJM10 will sport a matte pink finish instead of the silver colour scheme it was launched in, the team also confirmed their drivers will switch to using pink crash helmets.
The maximum allowed fuel quantity has increased from 100 kg to 105 kg for this season because of the radical aerodynamic changes (in old money that means they have gone from 135 liters to 142 liters per-race). However early analysis carried out by the teams after the winter testing indicates that some tracks could deteriorate into fuel-saving races.
This season we will see big aerodynamic changes and much wider cars, they will generate more downforce so more drag (around 10% more drag is what I have read), the tyres are wider and drivers are expected to spend more time on full throttle due to the increased mechanical and aerodynamic grip. While top speeds are expected to reduce slightly (because of the higher drag) drivers will spend around 10% more time at full throttle plus faster cornering speed, cars are going to use more fuel. At most races this will not have a major effect but some tracks, Melbourne for example, drivers may well have to spend a lot of time lifting and coasting.
From reading the press it seems that engineers from all the four engine manufacturers were surprised that the fuel consumption is higher than expected and they'd calculated over the winter. If we see it in Melbourne for sure we will also see it at Bahrain and Sochi (3 of the first 4 races), lets hope these fuel heavy tracks are the only ones.
McLaren and Honda
Could this be the last season for Honda in the back of a McLaren? While they have a long-term contract going through to 2024, it is being reported that there is a break clause that could be activated at the end of this season. Last season was a bad start for Honda/McLaren, during testing that only managed 710 laps but this season they did even worse with just 425 laps. Reliability is not the only concern as the power-unit is well down on power also, they are around 20mph slower than other teams on the straights and only Sauber running a 2016 Ferrari engine is slower. They used more engines during the two tests than they will be allowed to use for the whole season and were also running with less power than they did in Abu Dhabi 2016 around 45 to 50 HP less.
The problem seems to be vibrations that are affecting the electrics and shaking the engine to bits and it seems unlikely that Honda will sort these vibrations out before the first race in just 2 weeks time. Alonso's contract is up at the end of the season and he has already said he wants to race in 2018, so I'd guess other teams will be talking to him already, expect to hear about him moving to another team early in the summer
Force India has a new livery
Force India have a new sponsor, they have done a deal with Austrian water technology firm Best Water Technology. The VJM10 will sport a matte pink finish instead of the silver colour scheme it was launched in, the team also confirmed their drivers will switch to using pink crash helmets.
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beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
That looks great 
Limejuice
Well-Known Member
The Force India looks like it's sponsored by Hello Kitty and driven by Lady Penelope. F1 cars should look like a cigarette packet, like in Ye Goode Olde Days, and be sponsored by liquor brewers.
I agree that it's looking dismal for McLaren. It seems to be the same problem with reliability and power. Pretty fundamental for an F1 car. It's no good pointing to the convenient cup-holders and onboard wifi.
If there's a break clause, McLaren should call it a day with Honda.
I agree that it's looking dismal for McLaren. It seems to be the same problem with reliability and power. Pretty fundamental for an F1 car. It's no good pointing to the convenient cup-holders and onboard wifi.
If there's a break clause, McLaren should call it a day with Honda.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Yes, I was thinking similarly, Honda have a reputation to maintain, and they are no two bit company.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
I think the F1 cars look better with their wider tyres and lower wing, they look more purposeful.
I know people have complained about the sound, but it is very hard to hear on the screen how they actually sound in person. In endurance racing we had a sound issue because the winning Audi turbo diesels made hardly any noise at all. But as they were in the lead you knew they had to be proper race cars!
I know people have complained about the sound, but it is very hard to hear on the screen how they actually sound in person. In endurance racing we had a sound issue because the winning Audi turbo diesels made hardly any noise at all. But as they were in the lead you knew they had to be proper race cars!
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
The wider tyres and lower rear wing look great.
But all the other aero crap on them ruins the lines, they look shit.
But all the other aero crap on them ruins the lines, they look shit.
1%er
Well-Known Member
Liberty Media's 5 year plan
Liberty media have started to say what they want to do with F1 over the next 5 years, clearly some of this they can do before the new Concorde agreement comes in to effect in 2020, other areas they will have to put in the new agreement. As soon as possible they want to add value to race weekends by adding more and different entertainment, exploiting digital platforms and engagement with fans through social media.
In the longer term they want more races in the USA with Las Vegas top of their wish list (iirc Bernie was trying for years to get a race in Las Vegas, but Vegas is a gambling town where the big casinos hold a great deal of power, the city is all about making money and I'm not sure that F1 will bring that, it will bring maybe 150,000 race fans but will they gamble or just take up hotel rooms that could be occupied by gamblers, it will shut down the city for a week and close off the main streets, I'm not sure the casinos will be that interested. In Bernie's day all the money would have gone to FOM, maybe Liberty Media will spread it around a bit to secure a deal). They also want to bring back some European circuits that have become lost to the F1 calendar and according to news reports they have already started a process.
On the sporting side Ross Brawn is looking at a 3 to 5 year plan to take the sport past the new Concorde agreement, he is looking at everything from the format of races to how the sport should look and sound. He will also be looking at what power-unit the cars will have in 5 years time as it will take the manufactures that long to design and build new units, plus "a more intelligent design of car". He wants a levelling of the playing field, allowing smaller teams a chance to compete against wealthy manufacturers and will be looking at ways of keeping traditional races on the calendar.
They also want to look at race promoters, at the moment it is all about "how much will they pay and how much can FOM make", they want to balance that out and maybe even partner with promoters to ensure everyone makes money from every race.
They also want a better distribution of the prize fund to help smaller teams get better drivers and not to have to rely on pay drivers, they want Formula 1 to have the best 20 drives in the world racing in their series, "teams should be able to pick drivers on merit and not on what money they bring with them" Brawn said.
In other news
It seems Force India are being paid as much as $20million to have their car painted pink, I have a feeling that the pink could also attract other sponsors.
Viewing figures fall again
The biggest drop was in the UK where F1’s Global Media Report claims the figures fell by 5.1 million viewers. The worldwide audience dropped marking the sixth straight year that the number of F1 viewers has declined. It has lost a total of 137m since 2010 driven by a move to Pay TV, with more Pay TV in the pipeline it seems that teams will be getting more money from FOM to compensate for the loss of sponsorship as sponsorship has fallen in line with the loss of TV viewers.
Liberty media have started to say what they want to do with F1 over the next 5 years, clearly some of this they can do before the new Concorde agreement comes in to effect in 2020, other areas they will have to put in the new agreement. As soon as possible they want to add value to race weekends by adding more and different entertainment, exploiting digital platforms and engagement with fans through social media.
In the longer term they want more races in the USA with Las Vegas top of their wish list (iirc Bernie was trying for years to get a race in Las Vegas, but Vegas is a gambling town where the big casinos hold a great deal of power, the city is all about making money and I'm not sure that F1 will bring that, it will bring maybe 150,000 race fans but will they gamble or just take up hotel rooms that could be occupied by gamblers, it will shut down the city for a week and close off the main streets, I'm not sure the casinos will be that interested. In Bernie's day all the money would have gone to FOM, maybe Liberty Media will spread it around a bit to secure a deal). They also want to bring back some European circuits that have become lost to the F1 calendar and according to news reports they have already started a process.
On the sporting side Ross Brawn is looking at a 3 to 5 year plan to take the sport past the new Concorde agreement, he is looking at everything from the format of races to how the sport should look and sound. He will also be looking at what power-unit the cars will have in 5 years time as it will take the manufactures that long to design and build new units, plus "a more intelligent design of car". He wants a levelling of the playing field, allowing smaller teams a chance to compete against wealthy manufacturers and will be looking at ways of keeping traditional races on the calendar.
They also want to look at race promoters, at the moment it is all about "how much will they pay and how much can FOM make", they want to balance that out and maybe even partner with promoters to ensure everyone makes money from every race.
They also want a better distribution of the prize fund to help smaller teams get better drivers and not to have to rely on pay drivers, they want Formula 1 to have the best 20 drives in the world racing in their series, "teams should be able to pick drivers on merit and not on what money they bring with them" Brawn said.
In other news
It seems Force India are being paid as much as $20million to have their car painted pink, I have a feeling that the pink could also attract other sponsors.
Viewing figures fall again
The biggest drop was in the UK where F1’s Global Media Report claims the figures fell by 5.1 million viewers. The worldwide audience dropped marking the sixth straight year that the number of F1 viewers has declined. It has lost a total of 137m since 2010 driven by a move to Pay TV, with more Pay TV in the pipeline it seems that teams will be getting more money from FOM to compensate for the loss of sponsorship as sponsorship has fallen in line with the loss of TV viewers.
1%er
Well-Known Member
Paddy Lowe becomes Williams CTO
Williams Grand Prix Holdings PLC has appointed Paddy Lowe as its new Chief Technical Officer for the Williams Group. He starts work today and will take over the management responsibility for all engineering operations at Grove. He will also be joining the board of Directors and become a shareholding in the company. It isn't clear at the moment where the shares will come from or how many shares he will be awarded, but as Williams is a listed company this information will become public very soon.
He started his F1 career at Williams about 30 years ago when he was a control systems engineer alongside Adrian Newey and Patrick Head. Lowe was part of the group that designed active suspension, the system that gave Williams a big advantage and help take Nigel Mansell to the 1992 World Championship.
Will McLaren have a Mercedes power-unit in 2018
It's being reported that McLaren have made tentative approaches to Mercedes about them supplying their power-unit in 2018. McLaren and Mercedes have a long history and the team won both championship with Mika Hakkinen and Lewis while power by them. interestingly, Racing Director Eric Boullier was asked by the Spanish paper AS if McLaren would be winning if they had a Mercedes engine, his reply was "I think we would".
In a press release McLaren have announced "McLaren is delighted to announce that double world champion Mika Hakkinen will take up the position of Partner Ambassador with immediate effect, in a multi-year deal. In his newly established role, Mika Hakkinen will sit alongside McLaren Executive Director Zak Brown and the staff of McLaren Marketing, working with established partners and exciting new business prospects alike. He will also work closely with McLaren Automotive Chief Executive Officer Mike Flewitt and his marketing team".
Williams Grand Prix Holdings PLC has appointed Paddy Lowe as its new Chief Technical Officer for the Williams Group. He starts work today and will take over the management responsibility for all engineering operations at Grove. He will also be joining the board of Directors and become a shareholding in the company. It isn't clear at the moment where the shares will come from or how many shares he will be awarded, but as Williams is a listed company this information will become public very soon.
He started his F1 career at Williams about 30 years ago when he was a control systems engineer alongside Adrian Newey and Patrick Head. Lowe was part of the group that designed active suspension, the system that gave Williams a big advantage and help take Nigel Mansell to the 1992 World Championship.
Will McLaren have a Mercedes power-unit in 2018
It's being reported that McLaren have made tentative approaches to Mercedes about them supplying their power-unit in 2018. McLaren and Mercedes have a long history and the team won both championship with Mika Hakkinen and Lewis while power by them. interestingly, Racing Director Eric Boullier was asked by the Spanish paper AS if McLaren would be winning if they had a Mercedes engine, his reply was "I think we would".
In a press release McLaren have announced "McLaren is delighted to announce that double world champion Mika Hakkinen will take up the position of Partner Ambassador with immediate effect, in a multi-year deal. In his newly established role, Mika Hakkinen will sit alongside McLaren Executive Director Zak Brown and the staff of McLaren Marketing, working with established partners and exciting new business prospects alike. He will also work closely with McLaren Automotive Chief Executive Officer Mike Flewitt and his marketing team".
1%er
Well-Known Member
Only a week to go until the circus starts allover again 
Shark fins and T-wings to stay (for a while it seems)
When the shark fin first appeared on F1 cars a few seasons ago Jean Todt said that's a good idea, teams should put there numbers on that so fans can see easily which car it is as not every fan is knowledgeable enough to recognise the helmet (or notice that the colour of the camera cover was different). but teams said it looks horrible and wanted it banned and it was. It is back and some teams want to keep it, Brawn and others want it banned again but that would take unanimous approval from teams to revise the rules before the start of the season and it now seems that is unlikely. This is a great example of unintended consequences of rule changes in F1, lets hope that the committee being set up by Brawn to look at the future of F1 also looks at unintended consequences of rule changes
Mercedes to give customer teams same engine
Mercedes have confirmed that it will supply Force India and Williams the same spec engine that it runs in there cars, this is great news as it could lead to closer racing. It isn't always the case that manufactures supply customers teams with the most up-to-date engine, Ferrari don't and Red Bull change a lot of things on the unit supplied to them by Renault.
There has been speculation since the Barcelona tests that Mercedes was concerned about a potential problem with its crankshaft, which could have forced it to delay using the latest specification of power unit. But a high-level source at Mercedes has dismissed those claims, and the manufacturer is sticking to the plan for the works team, plus customers Force India and Williams, to run the updated version that Lewis Hamilton and Valtteri Bottas evaluated in the final test. Mercedes has made a big change to its power unit for this season and there have been rumours that it has been producing up to 70 bhp more on the dyno, but that did not seem to be borne out by its performance in testing. It appears, however, that Mercedes may have been running with its engines in a more conservative mode in Spain, which has allowed it to trial experimental parts and manage components it is not yet convinced need to be brought into action.
The thoughts of Chairman Emeritus
Ecclestone admits he is surprised by the decision not to make use of him, if only for the first year. Asked if he felt "let down", he replied "Not at all. I know the way the world operates". Asked if he would have made the same changes, he continued: "Probably not. I would have asked them to work with me for a bit, wait for a year and afterwards say "has it worked, not worked? Not worked? Sorry, you'll have to leave, or whatever. But different people operate companies differently, obviously," he admitted. "I think this is very much the way American companies operate. Let's be absolutely sensible about it: they bought the car, they wanted to drive it".
Having described Ecclestone's methods as dictatorial, Carey claimed that the sport had been allowed to "stagnate" and "not grown to its full potential". Ecclestone response was "I think people have got muddled up a bit, these people have thought, and Chase has said, that I hadn't done a very good job in the last three years. I thought I had, CVC thought I had, I managed to produce $1.5 billion-a-year income, which made their shares worth a lot of money, maybe if I'd have done a lousy job people could have bought the shares cheaper. I'm envious of him [Chase] because he can do some of the things that I wanted to do and couldn't do because I was here to run the company and make it profitable, that's what my job was as chief executive. He's got the luxury of maybe not having to worry about those things, but maybe he thinks that he can make the fans happy. But the only way you really make them happy is to have good competition. The product that we have had is not a product that is easy to sell and therefore it's not easy for people to embrace. But if this year the racing is good, it will be easier for sure. And that's what I hope happens".
When asked about his new job [Chairman Emeritus] Bernie said "The only thing Chase has asked me to do, as he knows I'm going to Brazil this weekend, is to chat to the president to see if he will put some money into the race. Otherwise it's possible we are going to lose that race, which I wouldn't like to do as I put it there 45-odd years ago and it's a good race". As for the Chairman Emeritus bit "I'd like some rules and regulations perhaps so I know what I'm supposed to do, or not supposed to do".
The end of an era, tchau Bernie, you sure gave me loads of laughs over the years
Shark fins and T-wings to stay (for a while it seems)
When the shark fin first appeared on F1 cars a few seasons ago Jean Todt said that's a good idea, teams should put there numbers on that so fans can see easily which car it is as not every fan is knowledgeable enough to recognise the helmet (or notice that the colour of the camera cover was different). but teams said it looks horrible and wanted it banned and it was. It is back and some teams want to keep it, Brawn and others want it banned again but that would take unanimous approval from teams to revise the rules before the start of the season and it now seems that is unlikely. This is a great example of unintended consequences of rule changes in F1, lets hope that the committee being set up by Brawn to look at the future of F1 also looks at unintended consequences of rule changes
Mercedes to give customer teams same engine
Mercedes have confirmed that it will supply Force India and Williams the same spec engine that it runs in there cars, this is great news as it could lead to closer racing. It isn't always the case that manufactures supply customers teams with the most up-to-date engine, Ferrari don't and Red Bull change a lot of things on the unit supplied to them by Renault.
There has been speculation since the Barcelona tests that Mercedes was concerned about a potential problem with its crankshaft, which could have forced it to delay using the latest specification of power unit. But a high-level source at Mercedes has dismissed those claims, and the manufacturer is sticking to the plan for the works team, plus customers Force India and Williams, to run the updated version that Lewis Hamilton and Valtteri Bottas evaluated in the final test. Mercedes has made a big change to its power unit for this season and there have been rumours that it has been producing up to 70 bhp more on the dyno, but that did not seem to be borne out by its performance in testing. It appears, however, that Mercedes may have been running with its engines in a more conservative mode in Spain, which has allowed it to trial experimental parts and manage components it is not yet convinced need to be brought into action.
The thoughts of Chairman Emeritus
Ecclestone admits he is surprised by the decision not to make use of him, if only for the first year. Asked if he felt "let down", he replied "Not at all. I know the way the world operates". Asked if he would have made the same changes, he continued: "Probably not. I would have asked them to work with me for a bit, wait for a year and afterwards say "has it worked, not worked? Not worked? Sorry, you'll have to leave, or whatever. But different people operate companies differently, obviously," he admitted. "I think this is very much the way American companies operate. Let's be absolutely sensible about it: they bought the car, they wanted to drive it".
Having described Ecclestone's methods as dictatorial, Carey claimed that the sport had been allowed to "stagnate" and "not grown to its full potential". Ecclestone response was "I think people have got muddled up a bit, these people have thought, and Chase has said, that I hadn't done a very good job in the last three years. I thought I had, CVC thought I had, I managed to produce $1.5 billion-a-year income, which made their shares worth a lot of money, maybe if I'd have done a lousy job people could have bought the shares cheaper. I'm envious of him [Chase] because he can do some of the things that I wanted to do and couldn't do because I was here to run the company and make it profitable, that's what my job was as chief executive. He's got the luxury of maybe not having to worry about those things, but maybe he thinks that he can make the fans happy. But the only way you really make them happy is to have good competition. The product that we have had is not a product that is easy to sell and therefore it's not easy for people to embrace. But if this year the racing is good, it will be easier for sure. And that's what I hope happens".
When asked about his new job [Chairman Emeritus] Bernie said "The only thing Chase has asked me to do, as he knows I'm going to Brazil this weekend, is to chat to the president to see if he will put some money into the race. Otherwise it's possible we are going to lose that race, which I wouldn't like to do as I put it there 45-odd years ago and it's a good race". As for the Chairman Emeritus bit "I'd like some rules and regulations perhaps so I know what I'm supposed to do, or not supposed to do".
The end of an era, tchau Bernie, you sure gave me loads of laughs over the years
Limejuice
Well-Known Member
It's that time again. And it's the first post-Bernie race.
Here's the current schedule:
Formula 1 (Sky Sports)
First race of the season, with its customary hideous times for those of us on and left of the Greenwich meridian.
UK times:
Fri 24 March
P1 - 01.00
P2 - 05.00
Sat 25 March
P3 - 03.00
Qual - 06.00
Sun 26 March
Race - 06.00
For the first race, I'd like to catch every session. I want to see how the teams really line up in terms of performance. How they approach practice sessions can be quite revealing.
That said, P1 and P3 might be just too 'overnight' even for my insomniac habits. Hey ho. "Once more unto the breech, dear friends, once more."
Here's the current schedule:
Formula 1 (Sky Sports)
First race of the season, with its customary hideous times for those of us on and left of the Greenwich meridian.
UK times:
Fri 24 March
P1 - 01.00
P2 - 05.00
Sat 25 March
P3 - 03.00
Qual - 06.00
Sun 26 March
Race - 06.00
For the first race, I'd like to catch every session. I want to see how the teams really line up in terms of performance. How they approach practice sessions can be quite revealing.
That said, P1 and P3 might be just too 'overnight' even for my insomniac habits. Hey ho. "Once more unto the breech, dear friends, once more."
1%er
Well-Known Member
It's that time again
Have Ferrari really got what it takes to catch Mercedes? Were Red Bull sandbagging during testing, are they really 1/2 a second behind Mercedes? Will McLaren make the grid with both cars and on which lap will they retire? What about the mid-field, Williams or Force India (even Renault), who will be the best of the rest? We should know or at least have a better understanding on Sunday
Pat Symonds says Massa didn't jump he was pushed
According to Williams ex-chief technical officer Pat Symonds, Williams couldn't afford to keep Massa and took the money that came with Lance Stroll. He says he advised the team to keep the same driver line-up to keep stability because the new technical rules made everything else unstable. “When I was there I was adamant that when we crossed into a new set of regulations it was important to stabilise everything else. In an ideal world I would have kept both drivers, but budgets at the time were not there to sustain that. Williams needed to at least keep Valtteri and that didn’t happen. To keep some continuity, the only option was to bring back Felipe, I think you’ve got to remember that Felipe didn’t really want to retire, but in mid-2016 they couldn’t afford to keep him”.
Lest we forget Bottas out-qualified Massa 17 to 4 last season, the biggest gap between two drivers from the same team
Eric Boullier makes the same point Ross Brawn makes in his book
Eric Boullier has made some rare comments that will be seen by some as criticisms of Honda. In an interview with Autosport he is reported as saying
"They only need one thing, which is to understand and integrate the F1 racing culture. What I mean by that is, the way we behave in racing and Formula 1 is all driven by a calendar, by fixed targets, fixed dates, lap time gains, we always try to go to the best solution as fast as possible. Where a car manufacturer is running a project, you can have a few weeks delay and it's not going to change the product, it's not going to change the business model. In racing, if you don't bring your upgrade for race one, in race one you will be nowhere. That is the racing mentality. It's as far as going to suppliers and making sure that if they do something in one month, the next time they do it in three weeks, and from then three weeks to two weeks. We value more the time gained than the money spent. This is a different approach from the rest of the world". He went on to talk about intergration of team and engine supplier "This is why Mercedes is based in England, and I guess they benefit from the supply chain, from people with experience of F1. Our suppliers maybe cost twice as much but are three, four, five times faster. In some ways you can realise the corporate influence is not helping to be efficient. The more you behave like a corporate company, the more process inherited from a corporate company, the slower you are, the less agile you are, which doesn't fit the racing culture".
This is a point made by Brawn in his book, he talked about Toyota and Honda and their relatively poor performances in Formula One over the years, he said they have a very different corporate culture where people are afraid to make a mistake and wait for decisions to go up the chain of commanded so the blame doesn't lie with them, which can't be done in the fast turnaround world of F1. Had Honda not pulled-out of F1 when he ran the team he wanted the engine development unit moved to the UK where it would have been housed in the same building as the rest of Honda F1, he said you can't have different parts of the same team in different places, everything needs to be under the same roof. This worked for him when he was at Ferrari. When he first went there as team boss, the first thing he did was bring the chases building into the Ferrari factory in Italy along with John Barnard who was building them in the UK, he did the same when Mercedes brought Brawn F1, ensuring that the engines were built in the factory in the UK where the rest of the car was built. "It is the only way to ensure that the whole team has the same culture and feels part of the same project" he said
FIA to evaluate DRS after Chinese GP
Because the new cars create more drag and because of the increase in downforce the FIA are going to look at the DRS system after the 2nd race. It is thought that the DRS will be less effective as the cars are fundamentally different from an aerodynamic point of view. It is also thought that the DRS effect will be smaller so they are looking at making the DRS zones longer, where possible. But as engineers can't agree if overtaking will be easier or not they will wait and see what really happens on tract in a real world scenario.
I have to say I am a little surprised that with all the tech in F1 they can't work things like this out with wind-tunnels and CFD, but I'm reminded that when the FIA did some serious aero testing with teams back in 2007 many engineers said they were surprised by the results, it must be a very dark-art this aerodynamics stuff if the top people in the field can't understand it outside a real world scenario
But good for them to be looking at it so quickly
Have Ferrari really got what it takes to catch Mercedes? Were Red Bull sandbagging during testing, are they really 1/2 a second behind Mercedes? Will McLaren make the grid with both cars and on which lap will they retire? What about the mid-field, Williams or Force India (even Renault), who will be the best of the rest? We should know or at least have a better understanding on Sunday
Pat Symonds says Massa didn't jump he was pushed
According to Williams ex-chief technical officer Pat Symonds, Williams couldn't afford to keep Massa and took the money that came with Lance Stroll. He says he advised the team to keep the same driver line-up to keep stability because the new technical rules made everything else unstable. “When I was there I was adamant that when we crossed into a new set of regulations it was important to stabilise everything else. In an ideal world I would have kept both drivers, but budgets at the time were not there to sustain that. Williams needed to at least keep Valtteri and that didn’t happen. To keep some continuity, the only option was to bring back Felipe, I think you’ve got to remember that Felipe didn’t really want to retire, but in mid-2016 they couldn’t afford to keep him”.
Lest we forget Bottas out-qualified Massa 17 to 4 last season, the biggest gap between two drivers from the same team
Eric Boullier makes the same point Ross Brawn makes in his book
Eric Boullier has made some rare comments that will be seen by some as criticisms of Honda. In an interview with Autosport he is reported as saying
"They only need one thing, which is to understand and integrate the F1 racing culture. What I mean by that is, the way we behave in racing and Formula 1 is all driven by a calendar, by fixed targets, fixed dates, lap time gains, we always try to go to the best solution as fast as possible. Where a car manufacturer is running a project, you can have a few weeks delay and it's not going to change the product, it's not going to change the business model. In racing, if you don't bring your upgrade for race one, in race one you will be nowhere. That is the racing mentality. It's as far as going to suppliers and making sure that if they do something in one month, the next time they do it in three weeks, and from then three weeks to two weeks. We value more the time gained than the money spent. This is a different approach from the rest of the world". He went on to talk about intergration of team and engine supplier "This is why Mercedes is based in England, and I guess they benefit from the supply chain, from people with experience of F1. Our suppliers maybe cost twice as much but are three, four, five times faster. In some ways you can realise the corporate influence is not helping to be efficient. The more you behave like a corporate company, the more process inherited from a corporate company, the slower you are, the less agile you are, which doesn't fit the racing culture".
This is a point made by Brawn in his book, he talked about Toyota and Honda and their relatively poor performances in Formula One over the years, he said they have a very different corporate culture where people are afraid to make a mistake and wait for decisions to go up the chain of commanded so the blame doesn't lie with them, which can't be done in the fast turnaround world of F1. Had Honda not pulled-out of F1 when he ran the team he wanted the engine development unit moved to the UK where it would have been housed in the same building as the rest of Honda F1, he said you can't have different parts of the same team in different places, everything needs to be under the same roof. This worked for him when he was at Ferrari. When he first went there as team boss, the first thing he did was bring the chases building into the Ferrari factory in Italy along with John Barnard who was building them in the UK, he did the same when Mercedes brought Brawn F1, ensuring that the engines were built in the factory in the UK where the rest of the car was built. "It is the only way to ensure that the whole team has the same culture and feels part of the same project" he said
FIA to evaluate DRS after Chinese GP
Because the new cars create more drag and because of the increase in downforce the FIA are going to look at the DRS system after the 2nd race. It is thought that the DRS will be less effective as the cars are fundamentally different from an aerodynamic point of view. It is also thought that the DRS effect will be smaller so they are looking at making the DRS zones longer, where possible. But as engineers can't agree if overtaking will be easier or not they will wait and see what really happens on tract in a real world scenario.
I have to say I am a little surprised that with all the tech in F1 they can't work things like this out with wind-tunnels and CFD, but I'm reminded that when the FIA did some serious aero testing with teams back in 2007 many engineers said they were surprised by the results, it must be a very dark-art this aerodynamics stuff if the top people in the field can't understand it outside a real world scenario
But good for them to be looking at it so quickly
Limejuice
Well-Known Member
Having worked (I still do!) for Japanese companies, the comments from Eric B and Ross B do ring a bell.
Going out on a limb, seat-of-the-pants, time-is-of-the-essence, action-oriented decisions are really not their forte.
I can recall from a long time ago one of the teams being asked about engine reliability. It was in the era of regular eruptions of smoke and flame.
"How can you test the reliability of your engines?"
"We can't. We put it in a car and race it. If the car crosses the finish line, the engine gets a tick."
Not really a corporate attitude.
Going out on a limb, seat-of-the-pants, time-is-of-the-essence, action-oriented decisions are really not their forte.
I can recall from a long time ago one of the teams being asked about engine reliability. It was in the era of regular eruptions of smoke and flame.
"How can you test the reliability of your engines?"
"We can't. We put it in a car and race it. If the car crosses the finish line, the engine gets a tick."
Not really a corporate attitude.
1%er
Well-Known Member
Red Bull suggest Mercedes are cheating
Let the games begin Christian Horner has written to the FIA claiming that Mercedes are cheating by burning oil as fuel during qualifying. It seems that Red Bull believes Mercedes has been using the ploy, which would break the rules as only certain chemicals are allowed to be used to power the V6 engine. Toto Wolff, however, was adamant that though the team does have an engine mode (known as a map) that allows the car to use more power for qualifying runs, the team had not broken the rules. He says about the allegation "They must be seeing ghosts. For years we've had a map that allows us to use more horsepower in qualifying. This is nothing new. Maybe there will be protests, but Mercedes feel safe".
Is Christian still pissed off at Toto for calling Jos last season
Braking zone rule scrapped for 2017
The rule surrounding movement under braking when engaged in wheel-to-wheel battle on track, which was brought in after last year’s Japanese Grand Prix, has been dropped by the FIA to encourage greater freedom for drivers. The rule was changed last season following complaints from drivers regarding what they considered to be dangerous defensive moves from Red Bull Racing driver Max Verstappen, with it all coming to a head at the Suzuka International Racing Course. That led to Scuderia Ferrari driver Sebastian Vettel receiving a ten second penalty at the Mexican Grand Prix, having been deemed to have moved under braking when trying to make a pass on Daniel Ricciardo at turn four of the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez track.
Charlie Whiting said "Some of the incidents that we saw last year may be handled slightly differently, simply because the so-called "Verstappen rule" has gone. Before, we said any move under braking will be investigated. Now we have a simple rule, which says effectively that if a driver moves erratically, goes unnecessarily slowly, or behaves in a manner that could endanger another driver, then he will be investigated. So there’s a very broad rule now. The way we interpreted the regulations last year was to simply use the rules that we had to say that moving under braking was potentially dangerous, and hence would be reported to the stewards every time. [Now] each incident will be dealt with only on the basis of whether or not it was a dangerous manoeuvre, not necessarily because he moved under braking”.
Steward consistency on such issues has always been an area of contention in F1, and the FIA have confirmed that they have been working with stewards over the winter to rectify this. Charlie went on to say “That was the request from the teams, they wanted less investigation, only in cases where it was clearly dangerous would there be action. We had a meeting yesterday with all the stewards, and we reviewed all the controversial incidents from last year to see how they would be dealt with under the so-called new rules, or the new approach. I won’t go into it now, but it was quite interesting. Things would have been dealt with differently, in some cases. What we’ve done to try to help the stewards is to introduce what we call a video archive system, which allows them to instantly refer to other incidents of a similar nature. So without having to trawl through and try to remember what happened to so and so, they’ll be able to pull up any similar incident. They’ll be sorted by type of incident, for , causing a collision, click, click, click, six of those incidents, see what the decisions were, and that should be able to give the stewards not only more chance to be consistent, but also faster”.
NB The law that states "a driver should only make one move whilst defending" will still apply however.
Let the games begin
Christian Horner has written to the FIA claiming that Mercedes are cheating by burning oil as fuel during qualifying. It seems that Red Bull believes Mercedes has been using the ploy, which would break the rules as only certain chemicals are allowed to be used to power the V6 engine. Toto Wolff, however, was adamant that though the team does have an engine mode (known as a map) that allows the car to use more power for qualifying runs, the team had not broken the rules. He says about the allegation "They must be seeing ghosts. For years we've had a map that allows us to use more horsepower in qualifying. This is nothing new. Maybe there will be protests, but Mercedes feel safe".Is Christian still pissed off at Toto for calling Jos last season
Braking zone rule scrapped for 2017
The rule surrounding movement under braking when engaged in wheel-to-wheel battle on track, which was brought in after last year’s Japanese Grand Prix, has been dropped by the FIA to encourage greater freedom for drivers. The rule was changed last season following complaints from drivers regarding what they considered to be dangerous defensive moves from Red Bull Racing driver Max Verstappen, with it all coming to a head at the Suzuka International Racing Course. That led to Scuderia Ferrari driver Sebastian Vettel receiving a ten second penalty at the Mexican Grand Prix, having been deemed to have moved under braking when trying to make a pass on Daniel Ricciardo at turn four of the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez track.
Charlie Whiting said "Some of the incidents that we saw last year may be handled slightly differently, simply because the so-called "Verstappen rule" has gone. Before, we said any move under braking will be investigated. Now we have a simple rule, which says effectively that if a driver moves erratically, goes unnecessarily slowly, or behaves in a manner that could endanger another driver, then he will be investigated. So there’s a very broad rule now. The way we interpreted the regulations last year was to simply use the rules that we had to say that moving under braking was potentially dangerous, and hence would be reported to the stewards every time. [Now] each incident will be dealt with only on the basis of whether or not it was a dangerous manoeuvre, not necessarily because he moved under braking”.
Steward consistency on such issues has always been an area of contention in F1, and the FIA have confirmed that they have been working with stewards over the winter to rectify this. Charlie went on to say “That was the request from the teams, they wanted less investigation, only in cases where it was clearly dangerous would there be action. We had a meeting yesterday with all the stewards, and we reviewed all the controversial incidents from last year to see how they would be dealt with under the so-called new rules, or the new approach. I won’t go into it now, but it was quite interesting. Things would have been dealt with differently, in some cases. What we’ve done to try to help the stewards is to introduce what we call a video archive system, which allows them to instantly refer to other incidents of a similar nature. So without having to trawl through and try to remember what happened to so and so, they’ll be able to pull up any similar incident. They’ll be sorted by type of incident, for , causing a collision, click, click, click, six of those incidents, see what the decisions were, and that should be able to give the stewards not only more chance to be consistent, but also faster”.
NB The law that states "a driver should only make one move whilst defending" will still apply however.
