European Super League (again)

[two sheds]

Is it the German model where clubs are owned by the fans? Not sure whether that could be legislated for but would seem a fitting retribution.

 

[Lord Camomile]

No one needs to be 'punished', what we need is to stand together, a fan's charter and fan representation. Something along them lines.

Is it the German model where clubs are owned by the fans? Not sure whether that could be legislated for but would seem a fitting retribution.

Yeah, take away their plaything and cash cow, that'd be a true punishment.

Question is, who does Johnson want to be popular with more?

 

[two sheds]

Not sure he gets any money from club owners - would be very attractive for him to be a Man of the People though, particularly Red Wall regions for no expenditure.

 

[Badgers]

Coincidence

 

[bmd]

This is is all down that Glaser cunt.

 

[tommers]

How did they do the 51% thing in Germany? Cos I'm wondering who's paying for half of man city.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

How did they do the 51% thing in Germany? Cos I'm wondering who's paying for half of man city.

They went from 100% down to 51% in 1998. So the opposite direction from what would need to happen here.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

How did they do the 51% thing in Germany? Cos I'm wondering who's paying for half of man city.

I think the 51% rule is actually a compromise - it used to be that no private ownership was permitted at all. They changed that but the 51% rule was to stop private companies/wealthy individuals taking over.

What that does mean is that they didn't go the other way - supporters didn't have to find 51% of the value of Bayern Munich to buy them out for example, which I think is what you're getting at.

 

[skyscraper101]

If anything this has turned me onto the Bundesliga more. I’ve never really committed to a team to support though.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I think the 51% rule is actually a compromise - it used to be that no private ownership was permitted at all. They changed that but the 51% rule was to stop private companies/wealthy individuals taking over.

What that does mean is that they didn't go the other way - supporters didn't have to find 51% of the value of Bayern Munich to buy them out for example, which I think is what you're getting at.

Yup. The Bayern fans didn't have to organise a whip round to buy out 51% of the shares. The 51% is gifted, similar to a 'golden share', to supporters trusts.

In addition to that a salary cap should be introduced which links pay bill of the club at the top of the EPL with the pay bill of the club at the bottom of League 2 (or division 4 as legacy fans call it). Something like a pay ratio that says that the top club cannot pay, say, 50 times more in wages and other benefits compared to the lower clubs should do it.

 

[two sheds]

Agree with the salary cap, although would mean lots of the top players following the money abroad. Fuck em really but would ideally need to be done worldwide.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yup. The Bayern fans didn't have to organise a whip round to buy out 51% of the shares. The 51% is gifted, similar to a 'golden share', to supporters trusts.

By my understanding it's not quite that. The clubs were never private companies, so if anything the 49% was bought by the private interests from the supporters trusts, which previously owned the whole lot. Nothing was ever gifted to anyone.

British football suffers from its history here - clubs have long been bankrolled by a local bigwig and we don't have a tradition of community-owned clubs. But where once it was the local millionaire who owned the club, now it's an international billionaire.

 

[two sheds]

I'd throw in a tanner for a bit of Man City.

 

[agricola]

By my understanding it's not quite that. The clubs were never private companies, so if anything the 49% was bought by the private interests from the supporters trusts, which previously owned the whole lot. Nothing was ever gifted to anyone.

British football suffers from its history here - clubs have long been bankrolled by a local bigwig and we don't have a tradition of community-owned clubs. But where once it was the local millionaire who owned the club, now it's an international billionaire.

or Deadpool

 

[Lord Camomile]

Yup. The Bayern fans didn't have to organise a whip round to buy out 51% of the shares. The 51% is gifted, similar to a 'golden share', to supporters trusts.

In addition to that a salary cap should be introduced which links pay bill of the club at the top of the EPL with the pay bill of the club at the bottom of League 2 (or division 4 as legacy fans call it). Something like a pay ratio that says that the top club cannot pay, say, 50 times more in wages and other benefits compared to the lower clubs should do it.

Agree with the salary cap, although would mean lots of the top players following the money abroad. Fuck em really but would ideally need to be done worldwide.

Agree with a salary cap, but would have to apply to everyone at the club (which I think is what Smokeandsteam is suggesting?).

Would be a very hard sell, though. Those already on large salaries would obviously fight hard, as would those hoping to be on them, but I think there'd also be a cultural thing of "putting a limit on success". Yes, I know that's bollocks, but it's what others believe.

 

[ska invita]

.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Would be a very hard sell, though. Those already on large salaries would obviously fight hard, as would those hoping to be on them, but I think there'd also be a cultural thing of "putting a limit on success". Yes, I know that's bollocks, but it's what others believe.

No need to cut any salary. They would just need to ensure that the ratio was maintained and simply increase the revenue available to the lower clubs to maintain it!

 

[1927]

Agree with the salary cap, although would mean lots of the top players following the money abroad. Fuck em really but would ideally need to be done worldwide.

Wont happen. It’s the foreign clubs who needed the ESL cos they are financially screwed.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

By my understanding it's not quite that. The clubs were never private companies, so if anything the 49% was bought by the private interests from the supporters trusts, which previously owned the whole lot. Nothing was ever gifted to anyone.

Yes, that's right in respect of Germany. I didn't express myself clearly: here it would need to be the reverse with the owners/s disposing of 51% of their holdings in the form of a golden share.

 

[The39thStep]

How did they do the 51% thing in Germany? Cos I'm wondering who's paying for half of man city.

Man utd supporters every time they fill their cars up with petrol

 

[Lord Camomile]

No need to cut any salary. They would just need to ensure that the ratio was maintained and simply increase the revenue available to the lower clubs to maintain it!

Very fair point

Although... how would you be increasing the revenue to lower clubs? Presumably all current revenue is currently allocated, so you'd either have to take that away from someone/where else, or increase the overall pot, which would be in danger of costing fans more?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Wont happen. It’s the foreign clubs who needed the ESL cos they are financially screwed.

There has never been a better time: the elite Spanish clubs are in over £1 Billion of debt. Italian clubs are dying trying to compete and the German clubs would presumably welcome other clubs adopting their model? All that's missing is the will...

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Very fair point

Although... how would you be increasing the revenue to lower clubs? Presumably all current revenue is currently allocated, so you'd either have to take that away from someone/where else, or increase the overall pot, which would be in danger of costing fans more?

The ESL clubs were keen to stress the importance of 'solidarity payments' (and to bankroll a women's league). Take them at their word. Appoint an independent regulator backed by forensic accountants from HMRC to oversee the scheme.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Not a massive fan of football, but this has been joyous to watch from the side-lines.

As to these gazillionaires owning clubs, in a free economy there's not much to stop an Ambromovich buying a club and injecting money in to it. What should be illegal, in football and all business is buying a club/business with a loan that is secured on that club/business. We do it for houses with a mortgage, yet as the financial crash showed larger deposits are needed to avoid too many loans turning bad, but with a mortgage the homeowner is the big loser if it goes wrong, with these billionaires it is everyone else's lives that get fucked whilst they walk away with the pension pot.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There has never been a better time: the elite Spanish clubs are in over £1 Billion of debt. Italian clubs are dying trying to compete and the German clubs would presumably welcome other clubs adopting their model? All that's missing is the will...

Plus everyone not in the Premier League is dying trying to compete with each other to get into the PL. The economics of the second division in England is utterly bonkers. It's the third-best supported league in Europe yet nearly all its member clubs lose money.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I don't really see increasing revenues to lower league teams as something to aim for in itself tbh (as a supporter of one of them). All other things being equal all that leads to is yet more player wage inflation and club debt - I think that would be the inevitable outcome of something like the SL proposals even if (and it's a big if) some of the money did trickle down somehow. I'd want to see measures to level out the playing field and to enforce good financial management and they don't require additional funds to introduce.

 

[Wilf]

I was just looking at global wage bills in sport on this site. Doesn't fit very well into my browser but still might be of interest.
GSSS 2019.pdf (globalsportssalaries.com)

Started me thinking about the absence of collective bargaining in football. A world of individual contracts and agents at the top, but is that the case everywhere?

 

[ska invita]

This might be interesting tonight

 

[Wilf]

Not a massive fan of football, but this has been joyous to watch from the side-lines.

As to these gazillionaires owning clubs, in a free economy there's not much to stop an Ambromovich buying a club and injecting money in to it. What should be illegal, in football and all business is buying a club/business with a loan that is secured on that club/business. We do it for houses with a mortgage, yet as the financial crash showed larger deposits are needed to avoid too many loans turning bad, but with a mortgage the homeowner is the big loser if it goes wrong, with these billionaires it is everyone else's lives that get fucked whilst they walk away with the pension pot.

Don't think I'd heard of a leveraged buyout till the glazers bought United. It was one of those what the fuck moments, how can that be a thing? 'We aren't rich enough to buy the thing, so we'll buy the thing and the thing will pay us back for buying the thing. Forever'. Doesn't even work in my head as a mathematical formula.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Don't think I'd heard of a leveraged buyout till the glazers bought United. It was one of those what the fuck moments, how can that be a thing? 'We aren't rich enough to buy the thing, so we'll buy the thing and the thing will pay us back for buying the thing. Forever'. Doesn't even work in my head as a mathematical formula.

It's a neat trick. What is there to stop you or me from doing it and buying Real Madrid tomorrow?