Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics, and Donbas more generally.

[tim]

Donebas is the South-Eastern province of Ukraine which in the media is portrayed as the most ProRussian part of the country and two parts of it Donetsk and Luhansk are already client statelets of Russia.

It's an area that is central to the war, but gets little direct mention. I am aware of the Russian claims that Luhansk and Donetsk have suffered from frequent Ukrainian state attacks since 2014 and that these attacks have lead to civilian deaths and injury. I don't know how much truth there is in these claims. I also don't know how much support secession from Ukraine and union with Russia has either in the People's Republics of in Donbass more generally.

There was recent outrage about Russian abduction of a Mayor. However, reports about a ProRussian ( presumably elected) mayor from within the zone under Ukrainian control being kidnapped and murdered got less coverage despite the killing being lauded by a Ukrainian Government spokesperson.

Pro-Russian mayor of city in eastern Ukraine found shot dead

I assume there are people here who know more than me who can give us a nuanced insight into the situation.

 

[JimW]

I posted this piece up on the main thread which I found quite insightful, the author seems pretty even-handed, a quick search suggests she's worked in conflict areas in the North Caucasus and Kazakh Steppe previously : From ‘frozen’ conflict to full-scale invasion How has eight years of war changed Ukraine’s Donbas? Meduza asks human rights expert Varvara Pakhomenko. — Meduza

 

[steeplejack]

Both statements are true.

The utterly ludicrous "People's Republics" are dismal entities run by Putinite gangsters. The narrative of a pro-Russian people yearning for unification with the homeland is simply not true. The narrative that Russia is somehow protector / guarantor of these places has been blown to smithereens since 24 Feb- quite literally- in the attacks on Russian cities / towns such as Kharkiv & Volnovakha (completely levelled as of yesterday and now devoid of any inhabitants).

That said, there has been badminton missile war between the Ukrainian armed forces and military associiated with DRP / LPR since 2014 and yes civilians have lost their lives in them. This has not been widely covered in the western media or really acknowledged by NATO. In fact arguably the "West" and "NATO" failures in Ukraine stretch back to their utter indifference to the absurd entities proclaimed in two Ukrainian cities and the seizure of the Crimea. "Our" inaction over this has led directly to the awful situation we are currently living through.

 

[CyberRose]

These were the casualties as of July 2021 (according to Radio Svoboda which asked the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights):

In response to a request from Radio Svoboda, the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights counted the total number of victims of hostilities in Donbas from April 14, 2014 to June 30, 2021.

"The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (UNHCR) estimates that the total number of casualties related to the conflict in Ukraine is 42,500-44,500," the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights said in response to a request. Radio Liberty.

These 42,500-44,500 recorded losses are distributed as follows:

• 13,200–13,400 casualties (at least 3,301 civilians, approximately 4,200 Ukrainian servicemen and approximately 5,800 members of armed groups)
• 29,600–3,300 wounded (7,000–9,000 civilians, 9,800–10,800 Ukrainian servicemen and 12,800–13,800 members of armed groups).

ООН підрахувала кількість жертв бойових дій на Донбасі, починаючи з 2014 року

Починаючи з 14 квітня 2014 року кількість жертв сягнула 42 500–44 500, нарахували в Управлінні верховного комісара ООН із прав людини

www.radiosvoboda.org

The UN, Amnesty, and HRW have all collected evidence of potential war crimes committed by both sides in the conflict - abductions, torture, murder, and as mentioned, indiscriminate use of unguided missiles into civilian areas, e.g.:

Unguided Grad rockets launched apparently by Ukrainian government forces and pro-government militias have killed at least 16 civilians and wounded many more in insurgent-controlled areas of Donetsk and its suburbs in at least four attacks between July 12 and 21, 2014, Human Rights Watch said today.

The use of indiscriminate rockets in populated areas violates international humanitarian law, or the laws of war, and may amount to war crimes.

Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians

www.hrw.org

The conflict began in 2014, shortly after the Crimea annexation which happened shortly after Yanukovych fled the country. In Donbas, pro-Russian militias seized various government buildings (police stations, security service buildings, etc). There is evidence to suggest Russian intelligence was behind these actions, presumably to give them the excuse of invading Ukraine one day in the future if necessary:

Nikolai stood near the local council building in Konstantinovka, leaning on his walking stick and shaking his head at the scene in front of him.
Masked gunmen in camouflage had seized the building and were guarding the entrance. Meanwhile, Pro-Russia activists were building barricades with concrete blocks and sandbags and singing along to а pop song about the Soviet Union.
Back in the USSR, Nikolai had worked for Soviet military intelligence. He's convinced that the men with guns here are from Russia.
"I went up to them," Nikolai told me. "They had modern Russian automatic rifles. I told them: I don't believe you are Ukrainians. You're from Russia. From GRU Military Intelligence. You can't cheat me. I'm from the same system."
"One of them replied: 'Ah, there's no tricking an old wolf, is there?' I'm sure they've been sent here and paid to make revolts and calamities."

Like the veteran military intelligence officer I met in Konstantinovka, the West, too, is convinced that there is a direct link between Moscow and the pro-Russia militia that has been seizing government buildings and police stations with impunity across Eastern Ukraine.
According to The Daily Beast, in a recent closed door meeting, the US Secretary of State John Kerry revealed that the US had obtained "taped conversations of intelligence operatives (in Ukraine) taking their orders from Moscow".

The Ukrainian government alleges that the commander of pro-Russia militants in eastern Ukraine - Igor Strelkov - is a Russian military officer. Kiev claims that his real name is Igor Girkin and that he is from Moscow.
This week he was among the 15 individuals sanctioned by the European Union. The EU identified him as "staff of the Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (GRU)".
In an interview with the Russian tabloid Komsomolskaya Pravda last weekend, Commander "Strelkov" claimed that "more than half, or maybe two-thirds" of his force were Ukrainians. "Many of them," he said, "had battle experience, many had fought in the Russian army…"Ukraine crisis: Meeting the little green men

Ukraine crisis: Meeting the little green men

Amid deep divisions and mistrust in east Ukraine, the BBC's Steven Rosenberg speaks to some of the pro-Russia activists occupying government buildings.

www.bbc.com

 

[zahir]

Life in the DPR and LPR before the current war.

Eight Years of War before the War - Rosa-Luxemburg-Stiftung

How eastern Ukraine’s breakaway provinces lost everything and gained nothing through integration with Russia

www.rosalux.de

 

[steeplejack]

This is really sad- cannon fodder / pressganged conscripts from the Donbass, on their way to the Sumy front to get blown up / shot dead



They complain about beign forced to fight for Russia with weapons that barely work, despite not being professional soldiers.

The grim reality of Russia's "liberation" of the Donbass peoples.

 

[hitmouse]

Was wondering if we need a "2014 and all that" thread (or to bump one of the old ones), but I suppose this will do. As historical parallels and stuff go, how far do people feel the same way about this war as they did about the previous Donbass war, and how far do you feel differently? Does it make sense to be or have been more neutral/nwbcw about the 2014 war than the current one, and if so why?

 

[Dogsauce]

I guess people may feel differently because of the increasingly illiberal/repressive direction of Russia’s leader, more clearly identified as ‘the bad guys’ this time around. Plus Putin’s role in Brexit/Trump etc. will have wound up the ’liberal elite’ and young people, so a chance to hit back via a proxy will be welcomed and cheered along loudly on the social media playground.

It’s been presented as a more existential threat to Europe’s free democracies, in particular as the intent seemed to be regime change and wholesale invasion, right up to the edge of EU states, which is a much bigger deal than a ‘border dispute’ which seems to be how the previous land grab was perceived.

 

[frogwoman]

I think there were genuine reasons for some people thinking they had to support separatism etc- there was far right involvement in the Maidan although not nearly the extent of Putin's bullshit claims. And things like Azov did start acting much more like a militia rather than the army unit they are now.

That said, the Putin fanatics, nazis and gangsters in charge of the 'Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics' should not have been anywhere near any kind of power at all. And they never had any kind of interest in 'defending the donbass'.

 

[frogwoman]

Also, there is (or was, lol) clearly some support for closer political and cultural ties with Russia in places like Donetsk etc. Again, nowhere near as much as Putin says it was, and the problems with the Maidan were blown out of proportion. However, I can understand why some people found the events in Maidan etc threatening and I'd be interested in seeing how they felt now.

Similar story in Crimea, imo the majority of people probably did want it to be part of Russia, but Putin just sent his troops in in plain clothes to take over the government buildings and then conducted a sham 'referendum' where everyone knew what the result was going to be in advance. If it had been done democratically then yeah, OK, but no.