Donald Trump - MAGAtwat news and discussion

[littlebabyjesus]

You’re right, that is a more interesting question. Probably a derail for this thread, though, even if I pretended to have an answer for it!

It's a derail, but I do have an answer. Violent revolution will inevitably produce some leader or other in control of the means to violence at the end of it. And it's downhill from there onwards.

 

[krtek a houby]

Yeh apologies, I started the derail - when I can be arsed I'll take it back to the thread where I was contemptuously labeled as a liberal, because I would like an answer - not just 'read this book little man, and then you'll understand what we superior anarchist communists believe'.

Understandable.

Not all of us are as well read as some here.

And I publicly apologize for the liberal slur.

 

[kabbes]

It's a derail, but I do have an answer. Violent revolution will inevitably produce some leader or other in control of the means to violence at the end of it. And it's downhill from there onwards.

FWIW, I agree. I do also actually have an answer, though, at least for how an alternative economic system would need to be built in an anarchist communist social reality, and also an outline of a roadmap that gets from here to there. One that doesn’t involve violence, but involves the gradual change of consciousness that is needed to live non-capitalistically. What I don’t have is any real idea how that roadmap could be implemented.

 

[krtek a houby]

FWIW, I agree. I do also actually have an answer, though, at least for how an alternative economic system would need to be built in an anarchist communist social reality, and also an outline of a roadmap that gets from here to there. One that doesn’t involve violence, but involves the gradual change of consciousness that is needed to live non-capitalistically. What I don’t have is any real idea how that roadmap could be implemented.

And how to sell it to the general populace in the US, who are not stupid or brain washed but are very much averse to the mere mention of even the vaguest suggestion of alternatives to capitalism.

 

[redsquirrel]

No, I want to know the precise definition of the word 'liberal' that you are using to label me with such contempt. You don't get away with 'read this book'. To be clear, I'm not arguing with the statements about liberalism, I'd like to know why you call me a liberal as opposed, say, to most other people on urban.

But I'm glad you're going to be happy with me saying well you're a communist and communism killed millions in russia. Just sayin' like, not that you're personally responsible for it but that's where your politics lead.

You've been presented with the Raymond Williams Keywords definitions multiple times - including on the thread you mentioned so you can search for that. Not that it particularly matters as it is largely consistent with what Danny. posted.

I'm about to go out, but if you want an example of where your politics shows signs of liberalism, look at the recent conversation we had about your idea that there is a 'correct' form of politics, and that people's idea (and so their politics) are formed by papers.

 

[two sheds]

You've been presented with the Raymond Williams Keywords definitions multiple times - including on the thread you mentioned so you can search for that. Not that it particularly matters as it is largely consistent with what Danny. posted.

I'm about to go out, but if you want an example of where your politics shows signs of liberalism, look at the recent conversation we had about your idea that there is a 'correct' form of politics, and that people's idea (and so their politics) are formed by papers.

Yes you distorted what I said on that thread, which was my particular dislike. I used the wrong example with communism above - I used it because almost nobody on urban would make that correspondence.

To be clearer, you're an abuser. It drips from your posts to anyone whose politics you don't like. Which is why I don't trust the things you say and am suspicious of your politics. Here's a book you can read on it to learn more about why you are one: "The Verbally Abusive Relationship, How to Recognize It and How to Respond ".

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Why are you posting bollox?

Eh?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

FWIW, I agree. I do also actually have an answer, though, at least for how an alternative economic system would need to be built in an anarchist communist social reality, and also an outline of a roadmap that gets from here to there. One that doesn’t involve violence, but involves the gradual change of consciousness that is needed to live non-capitalistically. What I don’t have is any real idea how that roadmap could be implemented.

To finish the derail, I suspect that you and I probably have some similar ideas about alternative economic systems, but of course it is producing realisic ideas about how to get from here to there that is the difficult bit. Producing new models of how a society should operate is the easy bit.

But I would say that the lesson from history is clear. The concept that the ends justify the means is dangerously wrongheaded. The ends are determined by the means. So any movement for change has to exemplify in itself and its own actions the principles it advocates.

 

[Ax^]

but, i was told by posters here, liberals are the problem

ya know American get a free pass to be fucking angry for a bit..

this is like a repeat of the Brexit vote but twice as bad for Americans try waking up realising just over half the country either actively voted for a semi fascist/ racist courting cunt who threating to take away social care and health care or the rest who just do not care as long as gas is cheap..

people telling me not to blame the people who voted would not sit well ..

 

[danny la rouge]

ya know American get a free pass to be fucking angry for a bit..

Absolutely. And I think the world gets to be fucking angry for a bit. I know I am. Angry and scared.

this is like a repeat of the Brexit vote but for Americans try waking up just over half the country either actively voted for a semi fascist/ racist courting cunt who threaten to take away social care and health care or just do not care as long as gas is cheap..

Thing is, I’m not disagreeing. I’m not sure anyone is.

people telling me not to blame the people who voted would not sit well ..

I don’t think anyone is saying don’t blame Trump voters for voting Trump. I’m certainly not.

However, as you rightly say, people are angry, and that’s never a great time to try and discuss nuance.

 

[danny la rouge]

To be clearer, you're an abuser.

Come on mate. You’re angry, but that’s a bit much.

 

[kabbes]

And how to sell it to the general populace in the US, who are not stupid or brain washed but are very much averse to the mere mention of even the vaguest suggestion of alternatives to capitalism.

You don’t have to sell it. If you build the right economic framework, people sell it to themselves merely by living and attempting to thrive. That’s how we got where we are — nobody “sold” neoliberalism to the current generations. Instead, economic institutions were created that gradually made neoliberal subjectivity a natural way of being. So in the end, ideas like an audit culture in the NHS that places clinicians subordinate to managers (to pick one example at random) just feel like obvious things to do, not new concepts that have to be sold. It’s pretty clear to me what kinds of alternative economic frameworks would create subjectivities more attuned to equality, community and environmentalism. That’s the roadmap. What isn’t obvious is how you would start to implement any of those frameworks starting from here, because all the power relations work against it. In short, the ability to make things happen is held by those who have the most to lose from the change.

 

[danny la rouge]

You don’t have to sell it. If you build the right economic framework, people sell it to themselves merely by living and attempting to thrive. That’s how we got where we are — nobody “sold” neoliberalism to the current generations. Instead, economic institutions were created that gradually made neoliberal subjectivity a natural way of being. So in the end, ideas like an audit culture in the NHS that places clinicians subordinate to managers (to pick one example at random) just feel like obvious things to do, not new concepts that have to be sold. It’s pretty clear to me what kinds of alternative economic frameworks would create subjectivities more attuned to equality, community and environmentalism. That’s the roadmap. What isn’t obvious is how you would start to implement any of those frameworks starting from here, because all the power relations work against it. In short, the ability to make things happen is held by those who have the most to lose from the change.

Indeed. And we’ve definitely discussed all of that over the decades. And maybe should again. But it’s a whole ‘nother thread.

 

[Ax^]

Come on mate. You’re angry, but that’s a bit much.

tbf at times red squirrel makes butchersapron appear almost fluffy in comparison

 

[danny la rouge]

tbf at times red squirrel makes butchersapron appear almost fluffy in comparison

He’s a lovely fella IRL.

 

[Serge Forward]

He’s a lovely fella IRL.

He is indeed.

 

[kabbes]

I think two sheds was clumsily making an analogy, not actually accusing redsquirrel of being an abuser. I think he was saying, "this is what it's like to be accused of being something unpleasant with no real explanation as to why".

 

[two sheds]

Come on mate. You’re angry, but that’s a bit much.

No, I actually think he is. You've not been at the sharp end of his contempt over the years.

I've been subjected to abuse before in my life and getting it again it affects me badly which is why I generally try not to give it out. If I've had a go at someone I expect something back but getting shit with no warning affects me.

His last bout left me not sleeping properly for almost a week. He took a throwaway comment and built it into me being an enemy of the working class, Threw me back into when I was younger - you try to go to sleep at night and can't because of it. I've told him in the past that it badly affects me and he apologized - if someone apologizes for something to me it means they're going to try not do it again.

I recognize abuse, and I've learned to either call it out or leave, otherwise it doesn't stop

as he's demonstrated.

Please don't quote the personal bits of this I may delete - my experience is also that things like this are used against you.

 

[danny la rouge]

I think two sheds was clumsily making an analogy, not actually accusing redsquirrel of being an abuser. I think he was saying, "this is what it's like to be accused of being something unpleasant with no real explanation as to why".

I think it might be better if we tried in future to point out when someone is using a liberal argument, rather than call them a liberal.

And for what it’s worth, I do sometimes employ liberal arguments myself. They can be useful, in certain circumstances. And indeed socialism, communism, anarchism are all evolutions from liberalism. Even Marx would admit so.

 

[two sheds]

I think two sheds was clumsily making an analogy, not actually accusing redsquirrel of being an abuser. I think he was saying, "this is what it's like to be accused of being something unpleasant with no real explanation as to why".

He ladles out abuse on here. Perhaps it's just when he can't see peoples' reactions that he feels comfortable in pushing out the contempt. And to be precise it's that contempt that gets to me.

 

[kabbes]

I think it might be better if we tried in future to point out when someone is using a liberal argument, rather than call them a liberal.

And for what it’s worth, I do sometimes employ liberal arguments myself. They can be useful, in certain circumstances. And indeed socialism, communism, anarchism are all evolutions from liberalism. Even Marx would admit so.

I agree. Personally, I try to avoid throwing labels at people because they are essentialist and therefore unhelpful. They don’t fit with how I understand reality to be constructed, frankly.

 

[kabbes]

He ladles out abuse on here. Perhaps it's just when he can't see peoples' reactions that he feels comfortable in pushing out the contempt. And to be precise it's that contempt that gets to me.

Fair enough. I’m sorry to hear that. You seem like a lovely guy to me.

 

[Ax^]

^this

 

[danny la rouge]

Fair enough. I’m sorry to hear that. You seem like a lovely guy to me.

Agreed and seconded.

 

[danny la rouge]

I agree. Personally, I try to avoid throwing labels at people because they are essentialist and therefore unhelpful. They don’t fit with how I understand reality to be constructed, frankly.

Yup, agreed. Absolutely.

Although I don’t always succeed in doing so. Including, frankly, in the definition of liberal that I wrote a decade ago.

 

[planetgeli]

I think it might be better if we tried in future to point out when someone is using a liberal argument, rather than call them a liberal.

Took your time but yes, exactly this.

Liberal is thrown around on here on occasions like Nazi was in student 80s politics. Just stupid shorthand for I don't like you/your politics. Not always, but often. As a perjorative, not debate.

And surely, conditions create the liberal so we need a little more understanding no?

 

[danny la rouge]

Took your time but yes, exactly this.

Ooft, bit harsh. I definitely called people “a liberal” in decades gone by, but I hope I’ve moved on. Especially as, like kabbes , I find the essentialism unhelpful.

 

[danny la rouge]

And surely, conditions create the liberal so we need a little more understanding no?

Conditions definitely create liberalism. But you’re incorrectly reading me if you think I have ever argued that “we need to be understand of racism”, as I think you’re implying.

I have not argued that and do not think that.

 

[LakieLady]

My best mate's mum when I was a kid was from Guyana and I only realised it wasn't an island in my 30s or 40s. Belize also, I always assumed was an island because it culturally aligns with the West Indies. Hispanic is probably a more useful term if you're talking about voting blocks because it's people who share media and culture.

I'm slightly ashamed to say that I thought the same for a long time, purely because the (then) West Indies cricket captain came from Guyana. I was shocked when Henry Blofeld said it wasn't.

 

[planetgeli]

Ooft, bit harsh. I definitely called people “a liberal” in decades gone by, but I hope I’ve moved on. Especially as, like kabbes , I find the essentialism unhelpful.

Perhaps I should have said 'took it's time' - I think you are one of very few people on here from left circles who actually does know how to talk in comprehensible ways that are neither patronising nor perjorative.

Many others don't, and I've seen it in the Left for the 40 years I've been in the Left. They (we) do not know how to speak to people which is why our message doesn't get across. And they (we) are even worse at speaking to each other, which is part of the constant alienation of the Left.

I'm only surprised there haven't been more decent people (people we want to win over ffs) like two sheds who haven't come forward with this same complaint.