Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[8ball]

I predict Neal Barnard, a well known vegan activist, doesn't believe the kind of science he agrees when it slams red meat

What would that be based on?

 

[Saul Goodman]

I suspect a few things are overstated here, but the general thrust is imo broadly plausible.

It seems reasonable that the major benefits of eating meat for most of our evolutionary history were down to gaining large amounts of calories and nutrients that were not otherwise attainable, and that there were certain implicit trade-offs.

That’s not to say I think we are well adapted to anything approaching veganism (though some people thrive on such a diet, and likely many more once a few supplements are introduced).

We could all be using Nokia 3310s (or equivalents). We could also be self-flagellating, but we choose not to, because we like to enjoy things... we enjoy not being miserable cunts.

 

[8ball]

We could all be using Nokia 3310s (or equivalents). We could also be self-flagellating, but we choose not to, because we like to enjoy things... we enjoy not being miserable cunts.

What is your point, caller?

 

[Saul Goodman]

What is your point, caller?

My point is that I enjoy eating meat. I like the taste, and no time soon am I going to swap that for fortified reconstituted cardboard.

 

[gentlegreen]

I usually find Michel Klaper too annoying with his "no oil ever" mantra, but I'm glad I watched this - it starts with him explaining how his medical training was useless for the diseases that actually kill people - it must be agonising to spend 40 years watching patients slowly die and feeling helpless.

But he adds something here which I didn't know about - how the mythological sources of B12 are actually problematic and it will change how I take mine. (My levels always test OK due to fortified foods, but I've decided to start taking more.)
Video set to just before B12 section.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Cartoon in the guardian. Sadly can't see a way to paste it directly here.

Vegans! Why won't they leave us alone to consume the flesh of tortured animals in peace? | First Dog on the Moon

 

[Rivendelboy]

What would that be based on?

His support for the claims red meat causes cancer.

 

[Rivendelboy]

I usually find Michel Klaper too annoying with his "no oil ever" mantra, but I'm glad I watched this - it starts with him explaining how his medical training was useless for the diseases that actually kill people - it must be agonising to spend 40 years watching patients slowly die and feeling helpless.

But he adds something here which I didn't know about - how the mythological sources of B12 are actually problematic and it will change how I take mine. (My levels always test OK due to fortified foods, but I've decided to start taking more.)
Video set to just before B12 section.

No oil ever seems utterly ridiculous. Even olive oil has been shown to be healthy, Dr Aseem Malhotra (Tom Watson's diet guru ) who is a cardiologist seems to know what he's talking about on this.

What do you mean by a mythological source (i have not watched the clip)? Dragon meat? Griffin liver?

 

[gentlegreen]

Doesn't Malhotra recommend lard ?

There are not-quite B12 compounds in seaweed that block B12 receptors - so my daily chewing of kelp "biltong" was not a good idea.

 

[Rivendelboy]

Doesn't Malhotra recommend lard ?

There are not-quite B12 compounds in seaweed that block B12 receptors - so my daily chewing of kelp "biltong" was not a good idea.

He's not against fat, lard is just pork fat and perfectly fine. The only bad fat is the processed transfat rubbish. Hydrogenated stuff. There are some issues around balance of omega 3 and 6. Some keto advocates make claims about vegetable oils on that basis, plus they are less stable (IIRC) than animal fats. But generally he's pro olive oil and advocates a mediterraean low carb(ish) diet on that basis. PErsonally I draw the line at drinking butter.

 

[8ball]

His support for the claims red meat causes cancer.

High red meat consumption is linked to an increased risk of bowel cancer, I believe (not sure whether they have totally teased apart the link with processed meat, which really ups the risk and I’m expecting a general row about the chemicals used in processing bacon at some point).

This article is just postulating a partial mechanism for that. I don’t know about risk re: other cancers.

 

[8ball]

Cartoon in the guardian. Sadly can't see a way to paste it directly here.

Vegans! Why won't they leave us alone to consume the flesh of tortured animals in peace? | First Dog on the Moon

Feeling in a helpful mood (slight wonkiness at the bottom, but am posting from a phone).

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Anyhoo, this weekend I'm off to the Vegan Campout where I'll be happy to rub shoulders with like minded folk for a change. Unfortunately it looks like it will be pissing down with rain, but I won't let that spoil the occasion.

https://www.vegancampout.co.uk/

/shamelessplug

Been there, done that, bought the t-shirts...


...and hung out with hordes of angry seething vegans.

Dipped in and out of the event over the weekend, unfortunately couldn't stay because we had to attend to my gravely ill mother-in-law, however, the turnout was FANTASTIC and it was very well organised imo. Met and chatted with loads of nice people, including the Hench Herbivore himself. Akala was there on Saturday night but we didn't get to see him.


Vegan Campout Pics

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I usually find Michel Klaper too annoying with his "no oil ever" mantra, but I'm glad I watched this - it starts with him explaining how his medical training was useless for the diseases that actually kill people - it must be agonising to spend 40 years watching patients slowly die and feeling helpless.

But he adds something here which I didn't know about - how the mythological sources of B12 are actually problematic and it will change how I take mine. (My levels always test OK due to fortified foods, but I've decided to start taking more.)
Video set to just before B12 section.

He was at the campout last weekend. I saw him doing his walkabout with loads of people queuing up to talk to him. I didn't get to see his talk.
With respect to the "no oil" thing. I don't really have a problem with that, oils are not really wholefoods, are super refined and are very easy to over consume. I would imagine that would be better to source fats from wholefoods wherever possible. I remember listening to a talk by Dr Jeff Novick a while back regarding the supposed benefits of the "Mediterranean Diet".



My B12 levels have also been fine without supplementation so far, but I have occasionally take a BetterYou mouth spray.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Sick food

 

[Rivendelboy]

He was at the campout last weekend. I saw him doing his walkabout with loads of people queuing up to talk to him. I didn't get to see his talk.
With respect to the "no oil" thing. I don't really have a problem with that, oils are not really wholefoods, are super refined and are very easy to over consume. I would imagine that would be better to source fats from wholefoods wherever possible. I remember listening to a talk by Dr Jeff Novick a while back regarding the supposed benefits of the "Mediterranean Diet".



My B12 levels have also been fine without supplementation so far, but I have occasionally take a BetterYou mouth spray.

I think I'ma listen to an actual cardiologist with proper medical training than..."jeff nelson".

 

[gentlegreen]

I was just shown several violently anti-vegan French pieces based on that Oxford study .. then a truly vile millennial keto youtuber with 39k subscribers called Frank Tufano attacking Klaper (e.g. "he's 71 and looks 20 years older") and veganism along with all the coments. WTF is happening at the moment. ?

Manipulation : le “véganisme” s’inscrit dans le cadre des programmes d’abrutissement et de crétinisation des nouvelles générations

I haven't figured out who these particular people are.

There's a strong Luddite tradition in France - not only thinking you need meat several times a day, but obsessed with "bio" ("organic", anti-GM / glyphosate/ Monsanto). several mayors defying government and imposing draconian anti-pesticide rulings.
Life won't be all roses living there.

 

[gentlegreen]

I think I'ma listen to an actual cardiologist with proper medical training than..."jeff nelson".

Blimey he's apparently an anti-nut nut

Additional Comments on more VegSource/Jeff Nelson anti- nut videos – April 2019

I just bought a shed-load of assorted nuts and have my eye on a new chestnut tree I discovered last week...

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I was just shown several violently anti-vegan French pieces based on that Oxford study .. then a truly vile millennial keto youtuber with 39k subscribers called Frank Tufano attacking Klaper (e.g. "he's 71 and looks 20 years older") and veganism along with all the coments. WTF is happening at the moment. ?

Manipulation : le “véganisme” s’inscrit dans le cadre des programmes d’abrutissement et de crétinisation des nouvelles générations

I haven't figured out who these particular people are.

There's a strong Luddite tradition in France - not only thinking you need meat several times a day, but obsessed with "bio" ("organic", anti-GM / glyphosate/ Monsanto). several mayors defying government and imposing draconian anti-pesticide rulings.
Life won't be all roses living there.

I was just shown several violently anti-vegan French pieces based on that Oxford study .. then a truly vile millennial keto youtuber with 39k subscribers called Frank Tufano attacking Klaper (e.g. "he's 71 and looks 20 years older") and veganism along with all the coments. WTF is happening at the moment. ?

Manipulation : le “véganisme” s’inscrit dans le cadre des programmes d’abrutissement et de crétinisation des nouvelles générations

I haven't figured out who these particular people are.

There's a strong Luddite tradition in France - not only thinking you need meat several times a day, but obsessed with "bio" ("organic", anti-GM / glyphosate/ Monsanto). several mayors defying government and imposing draconian anti-pesticide rulings.
Life won't be all roses living there.

Couldn't think why a country that has loads of small farmers and steeped in rich tradition could be against huge corporations having more control of their agricultural system.

 

[gentlegreen]

The mayors want to stop small farmers using glyphosate.
And blanket banning of GM tech hurts everyone.
There are nutters out there trying to wind the clock back to pre- Borlaugh times.
I don't know enough to say whether it's large or small Breton pig units that are causing the massive green algae problems.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

The mayors want to stop small farmers using glyphosate.
And blanket banning of GM tech hurts everyone.
There are nutters out there trying to wind the clock back to pre- Borlaugh times.
I don't know enough to say whether it's large or small Breton pig units that are causing the massive green algae problems.

If that's what the local populations want then fair play to them...

There's a whole lot that is fucked up with the current food system. I'm not anti GM per say, but I dont want to hand more power to the likes of Monsanto or see continued degradation of our soils or the effect huge mono cultures has on our natural environment.

 

[Saul Goodman]

The mayors want to stop small farmers using glyphosate.
And blanket banning of GM tech hurts everyone.
There are nutters out there trying to wind the clock back to pre- Borlaugh times.
I don't know enough to say whether it's large or small Breton pig units that are causing the massive green algae problems.

as UnderAnOpenSky said, it's their decision, and fair play to them for sticking to their guns. It'll either put them out of business or it won't but either way it surely can't be seen as a bad thing,

 

[gentlegreen]

Purchase of particular seeds or chemicals is not compulsory farmers choose to do so because they work.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Purchase of particular seeds or chemicals is not compulsory farmers choose to do so because they work.

Well yes. For the profit motive. Taken to the extreme so does cutting down rain forrest.

 

[gentlegreen]

Except these modern technologies are good for the environment.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Except these modern technologies are good for the environment.

Bollocks. They may be better then what went before but we are stripping soils of fertility and seeing a decreasing amount of wild life in our countryside.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I think I'ma listen to an actual cardiologist with proper medical training than..."jeff nelson".

Actually it's Jeff Novick doing the presentation, but anyway thanks for that piece of information although it's not really any of my business who you listen to, but anyway there are a few of those "actual cardiologists" knocking around too...



...Dr Montgomery is in the same ball park as Dr Novick...but you can listen to whoever you want to. Whatever floats your boat.

I'd rather listen to folks who are more on the side and advocate for prevention (ie real health professionals and not sickness management professionals). Why wait until after the horse has already bolted?

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I was just shown several violently anti-vegan French pieces based on that Oxford study .. then a truly vile millennial keto youtuber with 39k subscribers called Frank Tufano attacking Klaper (e.g. "he's 71 and looks 20 years older") and veganism along with all the coments. WTF is happening at the moment. ?

Yeah, it's not really a new phenomena, people love to attach themselves like a limpet to any story that they think gives veganism a bloody nose. The BBC website usually has a half baked "headline story" knocking knocking some aspect of veganism every 2 to 3 months.

As for Mr Tufano. I'd put him in the same ball park as Sv3rige. They are both rabid anti vegan activists. Here is the caveman doing his Fred Flinstone impression and gatecrashing an AV gathering. Paul did lose his shit a bit and became the mythical "angry vegan" when confronted with this level of stupid...

 

[Saul Goodman]

Yeah, it's not really a new phenomena, people love to attach themselves like a limpet to any story that they think gives veganism a bloody nose. The BBC website usually has a half baked "headline story" knocking knocking some aspect of veganism every 2 to 3 months.

As for Mr Tufano. I'd put him in the same ball park as Sv3rige. They are both rabid anti vegan activists. Here is the caveman doing his Fred Flinstone impression and gatecrashing an AV gathering. Paul did lose his shit a bit and became the mythical "angry vegan" when confronted with this level of stupid...

What percentage of meat eaters do you think are anti-vegan? Conversely, what percentage of vegans do you think are anti-meat-eater?

 

[Rivendelboy]

Actually it's Jeff Novick doing the presentation, but anyway thanks for that piece of information although it's not really any of my business who you listen to, but anyway there are a few of those "actual cardiologists" knocking around too...



...Dr Montgomery is in the same ball park as Dr Novick...but you can listen to whoever you want to. Whatever floats your boat.

I'd rather listen to folks who are more on the side and advocate for prevention (ie real health professionals and not sickness management professionals). Why wait until after the horse has already bolted?

Why indeed.