Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?
- Thread starter Watermelon Man
- Start date
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Has some overtones of a bullying campaign towards a sensitive neighbour by an obnoxious family, and that the press has seen an opportunity to drag the matter sideways into the culture wars.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
On which day of plant-based eating do you get the power to see through paywalls?
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Yeah, their children were playing in their garden and everything.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
That's very early on in the Bumper Book of Cunt's Tricks, that one (the "we were just doing something harmless, Miss" thing - I expect most posters here have been on one or both sides of that at some point).
Tbf the last paragraph is rather puzzling and paints her in a more clearly dubious light.
Still, remove the word vegan from the headline and the one place it appears in the article, and it's just a rather dull story about a neighbours dispute.
This puts a slightly different spin on the tone of things for me.
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8ball
Decolonise colons!
You need a special subset of "neighbour burgers", prepared in a manner that ensures they only do it once.
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
To be honest, she sounds quite vulnerable, and I do know that the press have no issues in exploiting the mentally vulnerable to get a good story.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
Weirdly I could see. That's a fair point. I can't normally see there articles.
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
I'm constantly amazed by all this as one who made the change nearly 40 years ago - all these "I tried vegan for a month and failed because of meat deficiency" ...
The one thing I remember from back then is mahoosive, fairly firm poos that blocked the bog - I don't recall when that stopped - not sure it's even a good idea.
I was not much into physical activity back then so I don't know how that was affected.
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gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
A likely story nudge nudge wink wink
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I'd assumed the article was about health *benefits* (I can only see the headline and a few lines of text).
And it takes way more than a month to get serious meat deficiency, as any fule no.
Usually between 5 and 8 years.
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dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
Unless you are really committed to change it is bound to fail all you need then is excuses. I like meat fish and dairy so never going to be a vegan through choice. Still wouldnt attend a barbecue to annoy a vegan that's just being a dick.
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
In my case I killed a mouse and felt bad about it, then there was the delightful perversity of going vegan in 1981 - and going from not eating veggies apart from spuds and frozen peas to spending Saturday charging about trying to see how many different kinds I could get - and I routinely ate 7 grains - and then I discovered sprouting ...I was just a bit of a hippy in my early 20s ... a shame I didn't try riding a pushbike for another 6 years ...
Fish is only seriously going to get back in when I'm catching them myself - and even then they only marginally fit into the nutritarian diet ... and sparingly ...
joustmaster
offcumdun
Deadly vegan lifestyle choice destroying lives and families
Vegans and vegetarians may have higher stroke risk
Vegans and vegetarians may have higher stroke risk
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
From the BBC, that bastion of quality journalism.
Long term nutrition research is so crap.
Have we had "choline" yet ?
Long term nutrition research is so crap.
Have we had "choline" yet ?
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Very little to actually pick at, at face value.
Headline isn't ideal, but it's better than a lot of stuff that gets dragged out on these threads. Also a very large sample size over quite a long span, and very early on the Beeb do say that nothing can be concluded about causes based on this information, merely that a correlation has been noticed. Some interesting speculation about vegetarian convenience foods too, I thought.
If it had been a lower stroke risk for vegetarians I have little doubt this would be a glowing example of science journalism referring to a study of the highest calibre possible.
Obviously "Deadly vegan lifestyle choice destroying lives and families" was just joustmaster indulging in a bit of silliness - it doesn't reflect the article at all.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
The article mentions that veggies/vegans have a lower risk of coronary heart disease and a higher risk of stroke (with substantially more cases of CHD). It then goes on to ignore the heart disease risk and ask 'does this show that veggie/vegan diets are bad for you.' Nice work.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Not a science type but does this not suggest the healthiest diet is mostly plant with moderate meat consumption
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Interestingly, vitamin K was mentioned at all, and neither does the BMJ report. I expected it to pop up somewhere...
The BMJ and the Beeb have taken pains to not be quite so blunt, thank you very much!
But not really - they were very targeted in what they were looking at (just ischaemic heart disease and stroke risk).
edit: have just noticed that my lunch is vegan...
edit2: actually, there's butter on the garlic bread... so close!
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Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Some of the vegans I have known were making seriously dubious food choices - lots of highly processed stuff, eg "vegan mayonnaise" and other preparations. I'm sure the same is true of vegetarians, too. So it may well be that some vegans/vegetarians are capable of consuming diets that are extremely poor for long-term health...
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Tbf I'm not arsed what people eat and find recent fascination with people's diets (and increase in weird diets like paleo and those freaks who eat raw liver and brain for the lols) a bit odd, but yeah hardly a surprise that eating a balanced diet with everything in moderation is, you know, sensibleYou mean a healthy, balanced diet?
Who knew?
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Dunno how 'recent' you're thinking of, but it seems dietary fads have been around for a good long time.
Took a look on wikipedia and apparently the first fad diet was in the 1830s. There were lots of them early on that were created by members of religious minorities and were related to a kind of spiritual hygiene.
Then, more recently (since the 1970s anyway), it seems to be solely health-based, and it's interesting that we've kind of gone back to the expunging of sin.
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
Is that a problem for vegans ?
I'm surprised I can bleed at all given the amount of greens I eat these days.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I was more just thinking that if you have a deficiency of vitamin K*, then your blood clotting will not be working so well, a major clotting chemical pathway is entirely dependent on vitamin K.
The deficiency will make you ill in other ways, but your risk of blood clots (which is closely tied to indicators collated on this trial) will be lower.
I think vitamin K deficiency would be less likely in veg<>ns than meat eaters (some of whom may barely ever touch a vegetable), and their levels would certainly be higher in general (I've been a bit crap with the veggies recently, and the amount of warfarin** I need to take to reach the optimal level for my personal health conditions has markedly dropped).
So one area of speculation might be that enough meat eaters are just slightly deficient enough in vitamin K to have increased their general clotting risk to a level above the evolutionarily optimal*** level, which is probably a little on the 'sticky' side for modern life (I go around with a clotting rate about a third of a normal person and haven't noticeably suffered from it when having the odd bump and scrape), and hence have the slightly higher clotting risk.
On the other hand, the veg<>ns are likely to be benefitting from the vitamin in ways that more than offset this effect and are not measured by this particular study.****
And might also benefit in the case of a serious accident.
* - which is in a lot of things but green leafy veg is really packed
** - its anticoagulant effect is modulated by working as a vitamin K antagonist
*** - as well as mitigating agaist blood clots, the rate of clotting has a major effect on risk of wound infection, which was a major threat during pretty much our entire evolutionary history - we should also bear in mind that strokes and ischaemic heart disease tend to occur after reproductive age, and so the negative selection effect would be limited
**** - we should bear in mind that a study that tries to measure too many things is generally a bad one
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gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
I predict Neal Barnard, a well known vegan activist, doesn't believe the kind of science he agrees when it slams red meat
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
Are you suggesting that vegan activists could possibly be guilty of talking absolute shite?
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I suspect a few things are overstated here, but the general thrust is imo broadly plausible.
It seems reasonable that the major benefits of eating meat for most of our evolutionary history were down to gaining large amounts of calories and nutrients that were not otherwise attainable, and that there were certain implicit trade-offs.
That’s not to say I think we are well adapted to anything approaching veganism (though some people thrive on such a diet, and likely many more once a few supplements are introduced).
Tl;dr. Eat your vegetables, dammit!
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