Did Palestine really exist?

[rachamim18]

Nino: No, none practices it
EXACTLY as their ancestors did. However, some do practice them very closely. Jews are one, Han Chinese another, and so on. Bretons and Afro-Caribbeans do not. "Palestinians" do, except that theirs are in Arabia.

Panda: While the Jewish religion certainly entwines with Jewish culture since there were only a negligible number of non-observant Jews up until 150 years ago, I do not rely on religious practice to support my widely supported position. However, where do you draw the line [if it even matters]. Take the kippah for example, or as it is known in Yiddish, yarmelkue.There is nothing in the Jewish religion that calls ofr it to be worn. It is worn by custom. Yet it holds religious significance. Sometimes it is almost impossible to diffrentiate between Jewish cultural practices and religious practices.


Telling all the Celts? Actually only Nino, Cemerty, and yourself were ignorant enough to whine over my statement that Celtis culture was nearly extinct. Because a few thousand in the Hebridea and Orkney Islands speak it as a mother tongue seems to make for an argument in you and yours eyes.

 

[pk]

Ah ha, so you're the genius, and everyone else is ignorant.

No. Just you.

Even Rachmaninov admits you're wrong.

 

[Gmart]

Rachamin

I did indeed know about the basic law etc, but this thread is to ascertain whether or not Palestine was invaded. You seem to be in denial about this. Your arguments are not convincing and thus your other better points are tainted by this failure to accept this basic issue. The Israelis invaded and thus are the original oppressors.

Newsflash for you too, the Palestinians do NOT feel that Israel is THEIR country because despite your protestations they are being invaded and are not being included into society. You might indeed protest that they are, but it is evident they are not. They are being marginalised by a superior force and not given an opportunity to succeed in the newly formed country. If you feel that the Basic Law is adequate as a constitution, then fair enough however the people on the ground in the area do not share your view.

I am not trying to 'duck facts' actually i am trying not to hide behind them. You put forward a lot of info, but the facts remain for all to see. The Israelis are oppressors who maybe self-delude into thinking that they are being fair to the people they invaded but if that were so, why are the Palestinians so unhappy?

However the key word i used for both sides was COMPROMISE, i even put it in capitals in case you missed it. Unfortunately in this respect both sides are much the same, and though the Palestinians get more sympathy from me for being the ones originally oppressed, a point has to come when they accept being invaded and try and create a world that they want to live in. Sadly it is this route which seems to be completely blocked by the Israelis, who seem to feel that the Palestinians have nothing to do with Israel. Thus the preference for a 2-state solution, which will never work.

Inevitably this lack of COMPROMISE will result in some madman detonating a nuclear device by which time it will all be too late and another disaster, this time partially of the Israelis creation, will have resulted in the death of millions.

 

[astronaut]

No. Just you.

Even Rachmaninov admits you're wrong.

No, Rachmaninov is also wrong.

Anti-semitism is hatred of Jews, not Arab, only Jews - that's how it was defined when the term was created, that's how it's understood by 99% of people.

 

[moono]

Some Muslims are Semites so 'anti-Semitism' can't mean 'opposition to Judaism'.

It's a misnomer, plain and simple. The tar-brush wielders will have to give it up. Oooooooooh, that's going to hurt.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

No, Rachmaninov is also wrong.

Anti-semitism is hatred of Jews, not Arab, only Jews - that's how it was defined when the term was created, that's how it's understood by 99% of people.

defined by whom...???

who created the wrod then .

i look forward tot he full etmological history you will be providing to backc up this stupid statement....

 

[astronaut]

Some Muslims are Semites so 'anti-Semitism' can't mean 'opposition to Judaism'.

It's a misnomer, plain and simple. The tar-brush wielders will have to give it up. Oooooooooh, that's going to hurt.

FFA, it's a way to twist claims that anti-zionism is anti-semitism -- i.e. that Arab's can't be anti-semitic.

That is a spurious twist, and it only alienates people like me -- who don't believe anti-zionism is anti-semitism, but know that anti-semites are out there.

 

[moono]

anti-semites are out there.

Sure they are. Rachamim, for example, describes murdering a Palestinian schoolgirl as ' a good kill '.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

anti-Semitism
1881, from Ger. Antisemitismus, first used by Wilhelm Marr in 1880, from anti- + Semite (q.v.). Not etymologically restricted to anti-Jewish theories, actions or policies, but almost always used in this sense. Those who object to the inaccuracy of the term might try H. Adler's Judaeophobia (1882).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=anti-Semitism


so it turns out that the correct term astro nut is Judaeophobia not anti semitism ...

 

[astronaut]

so it turns out that the correct term astro nut is Judaeophobia not anti semitism ...

So please explain why anti-Semitism is so widely used, and Judaeophobia is practically unknown?


Google hits:

Judaeophobia - 32,400

anti-Semitism - 15,400,000


I also found this interesting article: http://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2003/10/john_pilger_def.html

 

[pk]

So please explain why anti-Semitism is so widely used, and Judaeophobia is practically unknown?

Why don't you explain why the term Friday is used?

Or why we use a comma, to denote a pause in the flow of text?

The fact that your thick skull isn't able to compute the fact that you're utterly wrong - and that a schoolboy would know the actual definition of "semite" - is your problem and nobody elses.

Read this, astronaut, and learn something - then shut the fuck up about the term "anti-semitic" being ONLY applicable to Jewish people... you've been proved wrong by everyone here.

Semites are peoples who speak Semitic languages; the group includes Arabs, Aramaeans, Jews, and many Ethiopians.
In a Biblical sense, Semites are peoples whose ancestry can be traced back to Shem, Noah's eldest son.
The ancient Semitic populations were pastoral Nomads who several centuries before the Christian Era were migrating in large numbers from Arabia to Mesopotamia, the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, and the Nile River delta. Jews and other Semites settled in villages in Judea, southern Palestine.

Present day speakers of Semitic languages are as diverse in physical, psychological, cultural, and sociological characteristics as are speakers of Indo European languages.
The most prominent Semites today are Arabs and Jews.
They are different in many ways, and they have absorbed a variety of European traits through centuries of migration and trade.
The origin of Semitic languages, however, and many similarities in the stories of Islam and Judaism reflect a common ancient history.


http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/semites.htm

 

[belboid]

oh well, there you go, what proof you have offerred!

Getting narky as you are being shown up as a sad little bigot?

 

[astronaut]

Getting narky as you are being shown up as a sad little bigot?

Why? WHY? WHY?!!!

Please answer this, why does it make me a sad little bigot?

I haven't denied that Arabs or Muslims suffer from racism or religious hatred, I haven't defended the occupation, or anything.

All I am arguing about is the use of terminology, and how it is being misappropriated for political usage.

WHY does this make me a sad little bigot?

 

[astronaut]

Read this, astronaut, and learn something - then shut the fuck up about the term "anti-semitic" being ONLY applicable to Jewish people... you've been proved wrong by everyone here.

Again, I am not denying that Arabs are Semitic.

I am not denying that Jews and Arabs are culturally, ethnically and racially related.

I am not denying that Arabs have suffered racism.

BUT, I say it again, and again, and again, anti-semitism refers to hatred of Jews ONLY.

I haven't been proved wrong -- only people on this site are too pig headed to accept I am right.

 

[belboid]

I haven't been proved wrong -- only people on this site are too pig headed to accept I am right.

you really need to learn the difference between assertion and argument

 

[moono]

Astronaut;

BUT, I say it again, and again, and again, anti-semitism refers to hatred of Jews ONLY.

I haven't been proved wrong -- only people on this site are too pig headed to accept I am right.

Your problem, Astronaut, is that you are resistant to change. It's been pointed out that 'anti-Semitism' is a misnomer and it's time for people to adopt a different term. Why not ? Adopting a different term will satisfy those Semites who feel aggrieved by the misnomer and hurt nobody. Except the Zionists and their supporters who enjoy tainting discussion with claims of 'anti-Semitism'.

Just what do you find wrong with evolution in language ? You are keen to appear 'politically correct' when it suits you but extremely reluctant to accept that a misnomer term is incorrect. Nobody is saying that it hasn't been misunderstood or even incorrectly applied. The message is- stop using it incorrectly.

The topic is Palestine's very existence and the devil is in the detail.

 

[astronaut]

you really need to learn the difference between assertion and argument

ALL dictionaries (except Chambers) define it as hatred of Jews.

In common usage, it exclusively refers to hatred of Jews.

Except, on Urban75...

 

[moono]

The site is progressive. Judeophobists and Islamophobists both get their arses kicked.


The message is- stop using it incorrectly.

 

[astronaut]

Your problem, Astronaut, is that you are resistant to change.

So how long have you believed that all change is good?

Why should I be forced to accept all change, especially when that changed is forced on me by a tiny number of people, and when I don't see any benefit to the change whatsoever?

It's been pointed out that 'anti-Semitism' is a misnomer and it's time for people to adopt a different term. Why not ?

So is it also logical to propose that "elephant" is a misnomer for "fat animal with big ears and long nose"?

I'm quite sure that elephants don't use the word "elephant" to describe themselves.

Adopting a different term will satisfy those Semites who feel aggrieved by the misnomer and hurt nobody.

It will hurt Jews.

Except the Zionists and their supporters who enjoy tainting discussion with claims of 'anti-Semitism'.

So there IS a political motive to you misappropriating the term?

Perhaps if you didn't insist on using terms like "Jewboy" or trying to steal "anti-Semitism" from them, these people wouldn't see you as anti-Semitic?

People immediately complain when Zionists claim that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism, but they don't ask WHY Zionists make this claim.

Just what do you find wrong with evolution in language?

Evolution is random mutations. This is stinking political correctness proposed by a tiny number of extremists.

You are keen to appear 'politically correct' when it suits you but extremely reluctant to accept that a misnomer term is incorrect. Nobody is saying that it hasn't been misunderstood or even incorrectly applied. The message is- stop using it incorrectly.

I never try to be politically correct -- I try to respect people.

It is NOT politically correct to say that "Jewboy" is a racist term.

The topic is Palestine's very existence and the devil is in the detail.

So why try to alienate the very people with whom you need to reconcile in order to solve the Palestinian problem?

That is what your twisted usage of anti-Semitism (and Jewboy) is doing -- it is alienating Jews.

 

[moono]

So there IS a political motive to you misappropriating the term?

It's already a misnomer. Even you can't deny what a Semite IS.

Be happy with Judeophobia and show the other Semites some respect.

Geez, next thing you know they'll be claiming there is no Palestine.

 

[astronaut]

Be happy with Judeophobia

Fucking chutzpah of the highest order. Totally out of line.

 

[belboid]

ALL dictionaries (except Chambers) define it as hatred of Jews.

and that, is simply a lie.

 

[astronaut]

and that, is simply a lie.

I checked 5 dictionaries (all with better reputations than Chambers), and ALL of them defined it as hatred specifically against Jews.

 

[moono]

Originally Posted by moono
Be happy with Judeophobia


Fucking chutzpah of the highest order. Totally out of line.

I know, it's like parting with an old and trusted friend, isn't it. Still, onwards and upwards.

 

[belboid]

I rather suspect that makes you a double liar then.

 

[astronaut]

I know, it's like parting with an old and trusted friend, isn't it. Still, onwards and upwards.

I know you like defining who or what I am, but I am perfectly capable of doing that myself.

And since I have 99% of people on my side in this matter, let's just agree that anti-Semitism is hatred of Jews, and end all this bickering.

 

[belboid]

no, lets agree you are a liar

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

So please explain why anti-Semitism is so widely used, and Judaeophobia is practically unknown?

i would say in my opinion it's a cruiching desire by those zionist elements with in modern society to rewrite history to continually portray the jewish people as being terminally oppressed and to remove other refferences to other oppression going on at that time of equal or similar magnitiude as this then doesn't portray the suffering as being unique as in one victim many bullies but would show the suffering as a being a product of it's times...

there is recent precident for this other than the concept of trying to maintain the exculisivity of the misnomer anti - semitism, that would be the recent (last two or three years i think) attempts to rule excuitive exclusivity over the holocaust thus removing particularly, the gypsies from the historical versions of events...

which is ironic when you consider that just a touch under 6 million jews died in the second world war as a result of the final solution however just a touch under 6 million other peoples also died as a result of the final solution, whislt it was perhaps the largest releigous grouping which died under the nazis, they were by no means the only people to have been killed off in the "holocaust"...

yet no other grouping from the holhocaust has successfully managed to have a world remeberence day for say the gypsies, the disabled, the blacks, homosexuals jehovia witnesses... etc etc etc.... indeed in comaprision to the fact that nearly the entire population of eastern europian gypsies were killed of (half a million alone) by the holocaust you think the revisionists would at least pay them some regard...

simple matter of fact is that there has been a deleiberate and willfull distortion of contextural historical fact in order to substantiate and indeed justify the actions of the current isreali right wing...


this continues to this day with things such as racheals tomb; where there is an entire fabrication of historical evidence growing apace which is akin to factory like out put in order to justify the continued occupation of palestinian land...

putting aside the supposed fabricated claims of centries old land rights for one second and evaluating this thing on the ground... no single person shoul dhave their homes contiunally raided by armed forces and be in fear of the actions of armed forces working under state coersion... this is what has happened in afghanistan under the war lords, is currently happening in iraq under warlords... both situations we would say are morally objectionable, regardless of the rights and wrongs of the war's which placed the warlords into power...

more over if we can see that krystal nacth was an outrage then in the same breath it must also be said that they current isreali army tatics are not only comparible but also equally outragious...

it's very simple, astronut... when juding like fo rlike and using impartial evidence to back up these assertations no amount of revisionism will alter the facts....

however a lie repeated 1000 times may well still be a lie but it is commonly held up as being folk truth...

thankfully imperical truth and a down right refuseal to pander to revisionist histories has thus far prevented the offal you and rach and many others spout from gainign any providence outsdie of those who already felt that way... thankfully you are only preachign to the converted and not converting the remainder of humanity... more over it's good to see that even the ever increasing amount of young isrealis no longer beleive that your revisionist histroy is correct and are willign to challenge it...

Personally i hope that i am alive when the youth of isreal and the youth of palestine tear down the wall, and declare a single state...

it will happen, just as it did in south africa, east and west germany east and western europe... it will happen, sure in the short term their might be extraious land grabs going on but these will be returned... regardless...

i hoep you too are alive to see it astronut... so that the impotent rage will build as you are totally powerless to prevent it and maybe a veil will lift from your eyes and you will see you rlifes work your entire philosphy of being is little more than hatred based in fear built on ignorence... i hope you do see that day... you and rach...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I know you like defining who or what I am, but I am perfectly capable of doing that myself.

And since I have 99% of people on my side in this matter, let's just agree that anti-Semitism is hatred of Jews, and end all this bickering.

where are these 99% of people... bring them here ... now

 

[astronaut]

where are these 99% of people... bring them here ... now

You saw the results of the google I did?