Did Palestine really exist?
- Thread starter Gmart
- Start date
nino_savatte said:
It was always used to define hatred against Jews, that was the intent of the people who created the term, and that is how 99.9% of people use the term.
This use of anti-Semitism is being misappropriated to deny Jewish suffering for political ends -- in the same league as Holocaust denial.
Absolutely not, I would never deny such a thing.
BUT, that does not mean the term anti-Semitism can or should be applied to such hatred.
Gmart
Well-Known Member
i did not start this thread to give you lot another place to have a slanging match. If you just want to do that start your own thread, or better still send it as a PM. Except that wouldn't be as much fun because then no one else gets to share in your vitriol.
If you don't want to comment on the thread rather than throwing names at each other, then go away and respect those of us who are trying to discuss this issue.
If you don't want to comment on the thread rather than throwing names at each other, then go away and respect those of us who are trying to discuss this issue.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
not anyone love just you ...astronaut said:
would you like to explain how i am no better than a settler with you know words facts and evidence...
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
astronaut said:
precisely the one you are getting?
let's face it if you start an argument or discussion with a preconcieved idea of what a person is like or is likely to express and then insist on asking them double edged questions in an attempt to trap them in to confessing your misgivings about them then the are likely to react in a manner which will alarm you as any of their actions either postitive or negative will only server to re-enforce the agenda you have approached them with...
what is patently apperent is this is your motto for life, anythign which contracdicts your narrow world viewpoint is summed up by you as not being aware of the facts... in reality this is merely your own obfiscation as self delusion which maintians the concept that you alone are correct in your actions...astronaut said:
are you going to tell us what those secretive aulturisitic actions of peace making are... no of course not, becuase that would mean having to substantiate your lies ...
not something you are any good at what so ever...
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
sadly you will have to get used to the fact there are a cosiderable number of people who inhait these forums who have no issues to raise or discuss other than pushing their own agendas...Gmarthews said:i did not start this thread to give you lot another place to have a slanging match. If you just want to do that start your own thread, or better still send it as a PM. Except that wouldn't be as much fun because then no one else gets to share in your vitriol.
If you don't want to comment on the thread rather than throwing names at each other, then go away and respect those of us who are trying to discuss this issue.
in answer to your first post; yes it existed, not it was not considered a sovergin nation, yes the people who lived there can be considered to be sufficently in commonality to become and autoimous group so it is false and dishonest to say a land with out people for a people with out land....
are there issues of ownership, here's the thing, if the issue was about appropreate land rights and who was their first then surely all any settler would need to do is prove their land rights with the relvant docuementation show a consistant and unbroken line of patroniage to that piece of land and they could be considered it's rightful owner, as this has not been done in a single case thus far it can be considered that as this land is being bought up, largley via proxies rather than a buyer seller meet up and usually by colabortators who make it appear the land is being sold to another palestinian why would this practice even need to be obeserved if there was a legal claim to the land...
attempting to fabricate stories of land ownership after having to buy up the land is surely evidence enough that no pre existing right is there even in current law....
why would you buy your own land back from yourself...
of course you wouldn't.... so if you have tyo buy the land from other people via thrid parties it stands to reason it's not yours in the first place...
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
well anti-semitism does refer to hatred of jews ... you have to look at who invented the term, and why ...
when wilhelm marr founded the "league of anti-semites" he wasnt refering to arabs
however ... its just a semantic
argument really ... and an entirely separate issue to the thread topic ...
i dont know whether palestine really existed, however, palestinians exist, and now that they are there, they must be treated with respect ... with some of these arguments the implication is that because palestine isn't a real country then the palestinians don't really "exist" as humans either ...
when wilhelm marr founded the "league of anti-semites" he wasnt refering to arabs
however ... its just a semantic
argument really ... and an entirely separate issue to the thread topic ... i dont know whether palestine really existed, however, palestinians exist, and now that they are there, they must be treated with respect ... with some of these arguments the implication is that because palestine isn't a real country then the palestinians don't really "exist" as humans either ...
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
isnt't hat the numb of the argument each time.... thofrogwoman said:i dont know whether palestine really existed, however, palestinians exist, and now that they are there, they must be treated with respect ... with some of these arguments the implication is that because palestine isn't a real country then the palestinians don't really "exist" as humans either ...
it's not really a country cos they are technically citizens of greater isreal... sot hey are merely insurrectionists who must be quelled...
frogwoman;
It has been used exclusively to refer to Jews, now that's being addressed. It's become more than a semantic argument. It deserves highlighting, not glossing over.
It's also relevant to the topic. Is there a Palestine ? There certainly wouldn't be if issues such as the diminution of the importance of language went unaddressed. You think stripping Palestinians of their designation 'Semites' is unimportant ?
How else would you like to diminish them ?
It has been used exclusively to refer to Jews, now that's being addressed. It's become more than a semantic argument. It deserves highlighting, not glossing over.
It's also relevant to the topic. Is there a Palestine ? There certainly wouldn't be if issues such as the diminution of the importance of language went unaddressed. You think stripping Palestinians of their designation 'Semites' is unimportant ?
How else would you like to diminish them ?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
astronaut said:
So, let me get this straight: if someone is showing hatred towards an Arab, they are being what? I'll tell you what they are being: anti-semitic.
munkeeunit
sumptuous lushness
astronaut said:
In your own opinion, as someone who does not extend the definition of semites to all semites who are also Arab, but only those *you* are uncharitably willing to define as semites.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
i'll betchoo sing i don't know much alot don't you...astronaut said:
That's right. I can understand Israel-worshippers and closet Zionists getting miffed at losing their favourite, misappropriated, club, but hey, tough titty.
Let's not forget the genetic mapping proofs. Semites are Semites, no matter what religion they adopt. If you're anti-Semitic you're against the lot.
I expect that more reference works will reflect the correction of this misnomer in future.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
The argument about the correct use of the term anti-semitic is pointless.
Words are coined; and words change their meaning. Yes, the word was coined to make being hostile to Jews sound scientific and respectable. Now it is increasingly used to mean, not hostility to Jews, but well, hostility to semites in general. Fair enough. One can easily coin a new word for being prejudiced against Jews in particular (and I don't think anyone is saying there is no need for such a word -- are they?)
I've heard USAians refer to Arabs as sand niggers, so there is clearly a need to address that prejudice. What better way to do it than by using the term anti-semitic? Might make folk think a little more carefully about their attitudes, and that's a good thing, surely.
Words are coined; and words change their meaning. Yes, the word was coined to make being hostile to Jews sound scientific and respectable. Now it is increasingly used to mean, not hostility to Jews, but well, hostility to semites in general. Fair enough. One can easily coin a new word for being prejudiced against Jews in particular (and I don't think anyone is saying there is no need for such a word -- are they?)
I've heard USAians refer to Arabs as sand niggers, so there is clearly a need to address that prejudice. What better way to do it than by using the term anti-semitic? Might make folk think a little more carefully about their attitudes, and that's a good thing, surely.
This is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard.
So, let me propose some new PC definitions:
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion -- An infamous forgery aimed at fighting Arab and Jewish domination of Russia.
Hitler, Adolf -- Notorious hater of Arabs and Jews.
Nazi Party -- Anti-Arab and Jewish political party in Germany.
Kind of blurs distinctions somewhat, don't you think?
Using anti-Semitism as a catch-all phrase aims to trivialize Jewish suffering.
So, let me propose some new PC definitions:
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion -- An infamous forgery aimed at fighting Arab and Jewish domination of Russia.
Hitler, Adolf -- Notorious hater of Arabs and Jews.
Nazi Party -- Anti-Arab and Jewish political party in Germany.
Kind of blurs distinctions somewhat, don't you think?
Using anti-Semitism as a catch-all phrase aims to trivialize Jewish suffering.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
astronaut said:
sorry does any of this utter utter utter crap have anythign to do with the fact that yet again you ahave been proved wrong text book wrong,factually wrong, in terms of moralistic equality , wrong....
how many more flavours of wrong do you need to be it isn't a race to collect the set you know...
it's not about a reclassification either for refference but about using the current classification correctly rather than impropperly as have previously been the case...
i would say that the 'fight' you are putting up to deliberately exclude other groups of semities and more over to establish some kind of exclusivity on the term anti semetitic is notewrothy as to the level of one sided rhetoric you are personally preparred to inflict on others....
as a peace protestor which you claim you are that level of submerged anger cannto be useful to or for anyone...
unless of course you have conveinently reclassified peace proptestor too...
oh but wait you did...
mustawtanaat
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
marched into montaynamoono said:
to kick astronaughts head...
(this is purely conjeture i haev no way of knowing if siad poster is from Montanyna and if they are not i do apologise for slandering somewhere ...)
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
astronaut said:
Actually the Nazis weren't averse to cooperating with all Arabs. In Iraq during WWII they made contact with right wing anti-Jewish Iraqis through their embassy in Baghdad. Of course, there is a lot of oil in Iraq and the British were still occupying the country.
belboid said:
The point is, there is a vast amount of literature out there that talks about anti-Semitism (against Jews), a huge amount, probably millions of articles, books, etc.
If we now change the meaning of anti-Semitism to include hatred of Arabs, then at some time in the not too distant future, all the vast existing literature will suddenly say that Arabs suffered from European anti-Semitism.
There is immense absurdity in changing the definition of anti-Semitism, as well as trivialization of Jewish suffering.
Moono, Garfield, etc. can cry and complain as much as they like -- anti-Semitism refers to hatred of Jews -- and their ridicule will not change that -- except to provoke hatred in Jews.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Not just Arabs, astroturf - all Semites.
Btw, did you know that Maltese is a semitic language?
Btw, did you know that Maltese is a semitic language?
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
astronaut said:
sorry but just as there seems to be a desire to airbrush history in some american candy land fantasy verion made by disney... it doesn't change the fact you are still wrong... it isn't anti Yodhism which is definately anti jedaism it's anti semitism the key's in the words you use mustawtanaat the key is in the words...
the fact that one group of people or peoples attempt to reclassify a words in removed all other contitations of this word in order to marginalise themselves from others, and also marginalise those self same peoples
are you concerned about real anti semitism or just anti Yodhism... which is it... mustawtanaat... which is it...
Do you realise what you're saying ? You're saying that literature should not be revised to encompass new discovery or to correct error. Similar threads
