Did Palestine really exist?

[GarfieldLeChat]

The "Barrier" exceeds the Green Line [by 4%] because demographics have changed considerably since 67. It needs to protect Jewish population centers that have cropped up in a few areas along the Line.

"10s of thousands of Arabs left on the other side, defeating the purpose." the purpose was never to exclude Arabs. It is to protect Israelis. All Arab areas effected by the "Barrier" are Israeli Arab communities that had existed side by side with "Palestinian" communities. Surely some of the "Palestinians" were caught "behind lines" but only if they built illegalu. those that were forced to cede property, etc. were compensated so that in the end it was made as equitable as possible.

"Even if the 'Barrier' could be proved to have temporarily reduced the number of attacks, it is hardly the basis for lasting peace..." First off, it HAS been proven. It has reduced all attacks from areas bordered by it by more than 94%, and fatal attacks by more than 80 odd percent. It is not a temporary reduction as the "Barrier" is not a temporary structure [at least as far as Arab terror is not temporary].

It is not meant as a "basis for peace." It is meant as a protective measure. Plain and simple.

i am sorry, what did this have to do with the subject of the thread again?

the barrier hasn't reduced attacks by 94% the cease fire has done that and even so if you are going to accurately use that figure at least qualify it with has reduced attacks on isrealis (illegally occupying palestinian land sezied in 1967) but has done nothing but increase significantly the dehumaniseation, level and ferioscity of attacks on palestinians..

 

[phildwyer]

Dwyer: Of course I'll p.m. it although my having already explained how I audited it should have been sufficient. By the way, anyone can look up the roster and see what classes were taught, by whom, and so forth. The point being, you are not proving or disproving anything. I also want to point out that since our exchange was via p.m., there is no reason for it to be repeated in this thread. In fact, it has no relation to this thread [which of course was the reason we went to p.m.]. Is it getting clear yet?

I will always answer any question [about me] by anyone, as long as it is via p.m. and offered with civility. I would think that in this case though, that energies would be much better spent iniating a thread on the late "Professor." He courted controversy in his professional and personal life and there is definitely enough fodder.

Hang on a second, he courted controversy in his *personal* life? How was that then? I really think you should explain yourself. As far as his professional life goes, he was always studiedly rational and moderate, never succumbing to the lower instincts to which both sides of this question are prone--as his many Jewish friends and colleagues would confirm. I am disgusted by the slander which has attatched itself to his name, once he was safely dead. You may know that radical Zionists began a campaign against certain Arab professors at Columbia as soon as Said was safely out of the way.

The fact that you would put quotation marks around "Professor" when discussing Said makes me suspicious of your motives, as does your repetition of the slander that he was not a Palestinian. Is this still your position? As for the relevance to this thread, those who wish to deny that there was ever such an entity as Palestine will also try to suggest that there could be no such thing as a Palestinian--although with regard to Said, the charge is the more serious one that he lied throughout his life about his birthplace and background, a completely incredible and desperate assertion.

Edward Said was a truly great man, a genuine polymath, and a much-missed voice of reason on the Palestinian question, as well as generous, witty and modest to a fault in his persobal life. I am proud to have been his friend, and I will always defend him against the kind of posthumous attack that you have levelled against him.

 

[tangentlama]

Well said, PhilDwyer.

Rachamim - you've been given incorrect information. Dwyer is correct. A Zionist smear campaign against him seems to be the main source of your information about Professor Edward Said. It seems he was subject to a similar type of smear campaign in the US as the one attempted against Professor Tariq Ramadan in the US, and beyond.

Do you accept that you've been misinformed by your kooky "friends", and that their main goal was to discredit him.

 

[pk]

how fucking dare anyone throw around the racist cardin this manner

Absolutely BREATHTAKING hypocrisy, Garf, you've been calling me a racist here for about a year over some spurious comment - so don't expect ANYONE to heed to principles that only appear to apply when it suits you.

You're the FIRST person to play the race card in these kind of debates... and when it blows up in your face you use the tired old "I'm an Arab so I can't be racist", the same as when you chuck homophobic insults around you then declare "I'm a bisexual man, so I can't be homophobic!"

You really are a crybaby, aren't you Garf? Were you spoilt rotten as a child? It certainly seems so.

 

[moono]

How about cooling the squabble for a bit, chaps, so I can savour Rachamim's howls of pain. Lol.


Sharon's Stockade is exactly that, Rachamim, a stockade with , as the Israeli State has recently confessed in court, a political component.
Hamas's ceasefire has been instrumental in reducing attacks within Israel over the past 18 months. The stockade will look very stupid if attacks increase now. Rocket attacks also make the stockade appear stupid, as will dissent from within the fascist State itself.
The stockade, where it is built upon occupied territory, is illegal. The ICJ has advised that it be torn down. Anybody believing that the stockade 'protects' Israelis is a plonker. It's a millstone and Zionism isn't strong enough to wear it round its neck for long.

Please address phildwyer's post before mine. I'll wait patiently and enjoy the in-site entertainment. Lol.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Absolutely BREATHTAKING hypocrisy, Garf, you've been calling me a racist here for about a year over some spurious comment - so don't expect ANYONE to heed to principles that only appear to apply when it suits you.

You're the FIRST person to play the race card in these kind of debates... and when it blows up in your face you use the tired old "I'm an Arab so I can't be racist", the same as when you chuck homophobic insults around you then declare "I'm a bisexual man, so I can't be homophobic!"

You really are a crybaby, aren't you Garf? Were you spoilt rotten as a child? It certainly seems so.

from the man who says i don't look arab enough... yes we take on board your comments... can't we...

have anything to add to the thread topic pk, pointless squaring up on this thread is particularlly frowned upon...

 

[FridgeMagnet]

If you've come onto this topic to have a pop at people, pk, don't. Won't say it again. I'm also sure that any further discussion as to any possible personal subtexts within posts can be conducted via PM, if it must.

 

[tangentlama]

How about cooling the squabble for a bit, chaps, so I can savour Rachamim's howls of pain. Lol.

How about this?
http://www.counterpunch.com/moskowitz06102006.html

I think your projection that he'd howl with pain at having been lied to is incorrect. I'd say they'd be more howls of rage, and you probably wouldn't find it funny. (You might even feel tempted to join in. Who knows?)

I've said it before, and I will say it again: these aren't Rachamim's 'lies' - he's been 'lied' to.
In my opinion, the 'stunning' effect of these lies has served Israel badly, too.


Can a libel suit be brought posthumously, on behalf of someone, especially a published author, does anyone know?

 

[moono]

Pain, rage, so long as the inflated and offensive stereotype gets a pin stuck in it.

 

[tangentlama]

Rocket attacks also make the stockade appear stupid, as will dissent from within the fascist State itself.

Can you stop calling Israel a fascist state, please. This is as bad as the neo-con media smear that palestinianism has it's roots in hitlers nazism.

Name the elements and the names even of those promoting that hard-right, win-lose future, but don't insult those in Israel and Palestine and beyond, who are working towards a win-win, and demonstrating and campaigning for Palestinian and Israeli rights!

Your blanket term ignores the diversity of opinion both within and without Israel itself, and all the diaspora campaigns to pressurise Israel into bringing the illegal settlers into Israel proper. I see it as lazy that you don't illustrate or give a current example of what you mean, which would probably go to some way as to helping me to understand what you consider to be fascistic - it would also give some substance to base your claim on, and would show some consideration for those who are still following this thread (you stalwarts, you!).

Do you think Palestine be prepared to absorb some of it's own refugee and diaspora populace in the same way? Just curious like.

 

[moono]

Sorry, tangentlama, but I judge Israel by its actions and I perceive those actions to be fascist. There are enough examples here without me having to review them. The fascism might not be broad and obvious in the music-hall sense but it's there.

In fairness, its a fascist administration, but I'm sure that people understand that administrations don't represent all of the people.

So no, I can't stop calling Israel a fascist State please. The Israelis must overcome their fascist leadership first.

 

[tangentlama]

What about MK Yossi Beilin? You do his work a disservice and all those who voted for him with your incorrect categorisation. It's a blanket damnation, leaving no room for the torch-bearers, and I've raised this same point, in the past, about blanket condemnation for the way Hamas functions as an administration and sloppy criticisms from several quarters, not only 'zionist' or 'israeli', but also people who probably think they're being 'quite nice' and charitable by adopting the 'entire view of another' without verification or reflection.

 

[moono]

I suggest that Mr. Beilin, gawd bless 'im, doesn't himself appreciate that the fascist elements of Israeli government have no intentions of any ceasefires of any description until their territorial booty is in the bag. And perhaps not even then.

MK Avigdor Lieberman, chairman of the right-wing Yisrael Beiteinu party, called on the Israel Defense Forces on Friday to announce that it will target Hamas leaders' homes in response to Qassam rocket fire from the Gaza Strip, Israel Radio reported.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/727844.html

There appears to be more 'Liebermans' than 'Beilins'.

 

[pk]

If you've come onto this topic to have a pop at people, pk, don't. Won't say it again. I'm also sure that any further discussion as to any possible personal subtexts within posts can be conducted via PM, if it must.

No, sorry, I'm addressing what I see as yet more blatant hypocrisy shown once again by Garf. I didn't use any rude words and I see no reason why I should be accused of "having a pop" at Garf.

There is no "personal subtext" in my comments here than there is those of in anyone else on this thread.

He is pretending to play the "outraged of Orpington" role over playing the race card, yet this is his own stock in trade.

Here's the proof of his hypocrisy: http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=4050187&postcount=65

Worth pointing out, and worth remembering, for the next time he screams "racist!" whenever he loses another argument.

And if you're here as a result of his reporting my post, then that speaks volumes...

 

[FridgeMagnet]

24h ban for continued thread disruption after warning

 

[rachamim18]

Garfield: First off, I never claimed that "Palestinian" students were not being taught actual subjects. The racist material is taught primarily in three classes: I] Islam [mandatory subject in PA schools, christain Arabs almost always attend private schools], II] History, and III] Citizenship [known in the West as Social Studies]. It is taught from 1st form through last.

As for schools you have visited, I cannot comment. Only you know about that. I do know however that I was last in the so called "West Bank" in the last week of March and found the books, in Arabi, still in wide use by all grades.

This is a well known phenomenon that is continuously reported by mainstream outlets. I have no reason to make things up. Let me ask you, have you ever read the HAMAS Charter? If you have, and if you are lucid enough to realise that HAMAS is in charge of the curriculum, how could you EVER suspect that it is not true? Sadly, the curriculum is not new, it predates HAMAS by many years.

The Ceasefire has caused the 94% reduction in attacks from areas bordered by the "Barrier," not the "Barrier" itself? The thing is, PIJ has never acknowledged any alleged "Ceasefire." To that end, although HAMAS, al Akhsa, Fatah, and Tanzim HAVE acknolwedged and signed off on it, they have continued to attack Israeli civilians. Also, PFLP never signed off on it and has also continued attacking. Ergo, your point makes no sense.

Your claim that the "Barrier" has caused an increase on attacks against "Palestinians" is ludicrous. Please explain that one.

Dwyer: I do not want to engage in off thread subjects but I will offer this: Even his most widely hailed work [Orientalism] is tied to alot of controversy. his auto-bio details never meshed and many were found to be patently false, and he was a publicity hound. Even the Beirut dailies took him to task for his posed peblle tossing in 2000. You evidently hold him in high regard, good for you. Many, like me, feel he was a disingenuous rabble rouser who should have stuck to his critical essays on English.

I have news for you, and you should be well aware of this considering you are not that much younger than me, poeople were criticising him and his actions long before he died. Your whole thing seems to be that you resent people speaking ill of him since he is dead and can no longer defend himself. I am sure that you realise that he was a public figure, and whether or not you agree that he courted controversy, you must admit that taking a stand on a devisive political issue will lead to negative attnetion. That one is dead
does not mean that others will no longer be drawn to one's opinions. Just as people use Said's opinions to state their case on this issue, others offer rebuttal. He was a public figure.

"Radical Zionists." Actually that is not at all what happened. A personal friend of mine, a fellow IDF soldier, was in Professor M's class. The professor was talking about how Israeli troops did this and that and my friend took umbrage to the label "Nazi." He very politely raised his hand. the professor called on him and when my friend begged to differ [again politely]. He was literally shouted down by the professor. He was told that he was an animal. He was told all Jewish Israelis are Nazis. There were othere shouted comments.

When this nonsense went on for 4 more classes my friend contacted the embassy[Israeli], who in turn had staff contact bollinger. bollinger side stepped it with pleas of tenure and academic freedom. At the same time there was another Jewish student in the class who while remaining seemingly aloof, was deeply disturbed. He went to the ADL and explained what was happening.

The ADL contacted several Jewish students and recent alumni and found that the entire Mid-East dept. was rife with anti Israel bias. Other students have felt intimidated, even in danger. One was physically assaulted by a "Peace Activist [ISM member ironically, or perhaps not ironically]."

When the ADL saw that Bollinger was brushing them off as they had the Embassy, they contacted several other Jewish organisations who in turn leaked it to the press. The press ran with it and it became a national and then semi-international story for a bit.

Columbia ended up doing its own internal investigation that not suprisingly found little cause for concern. It of course cited academic freedom and freedom of speech and would only pay minor lip service to trying to end the feelings of divisiveness that others claimed permeated the campus.

"Quotation marks around the word "professor" when used in conjunction with Said's name." Fair enough. However, I of course have no doubts about his academic credentials. I freely admit that in the field of English and Comparative Lit he was superb. My umbrage is with his inserting himself into the middle of one of the world's most convoluted armed conflicts. His expertise on the matter was limited [severely] to an alleged childhood connection to the land in question. Of course, with its recent date and wealth of information concerening Jerusalem at that time, there would have been ample proof to support his claims and silence his critics. Instead he was only able to provide anecdoted from an elderly employee of the school he claimed to have attened and the recollection of 2 Arabs who said that they remembered him.

In terms of physical evidence, he had a single piece: He was able to produce a birth certficiate from the Mandate but one with no address.On the other hand the Cairo guide and census show his father and mother having been living in Cairo in that year and as far back as 29. Prior to that the father had been in America and the mother in her NATIVE Lebanon. In short, he was unable to ever prove his claims. Others were able to prove that his poarents were not "Palestinian" and that he had school records in Cairo. interestingly, childhood anecdotes of people who DID remember him well came from Cairo.

Just to clarify for those that care, he DID have family that lived within the Mandate and this family even had a branch in Jerusalem but this was common among upperclass Arabs. Said himself though was not a "Palestinian."

You state that Said "was a man of reason." Well, that is a subjective label certainly. I wonder though, do you call people who agitate for the murder of others as "reasonable?" I surely hope not. The man called for killings.

Oh, and Dwyer, just to put it to rest...I do not rely on Justus' piece for my information but have managed to accumulate a nice dossier on him all by myself.

I do not say that there "is no such thing as a 'Palestinian'." I claim that there was no such thing prior to 48. After 48 they certainly did and do exist. My comaplaint about Said is as you said, that I maintain he was in fact a charlatan.

 

[rachamim18]

Tangent: If you would like, I can p.m. you in depth information on the man that proves to all rational people that he lied about his background and pre-American life. Let me know.

Zionists did not make the people from the school in Jerusalem not know him, or make those from Cairo at same time know him. Nor did the Zionists list the father in Egyptian records, or the mother freely admit she was Lebanese. There are thousands of esteemed anti Zionists and anti Israel activisrts. Zionists do not need to "smear" one and ignore the rest. What was so threatening about the man that he deserved this negative attention while thousands of others are merely ignored? All he did was run his mouth and throw pebbles across an electrified fence at a concrete outpost. there was nothing threatening about him.

Counter Punch? That racist drivel? Tangent, I am suprised to say the least. Have we not heard quite enoughg about how Jews control the American govt.? What next? The Media and Banks? As was demonstrated by Olmert's Washington visit the pro-Israel Lobby here in America operates far differently then most people imagine [sadly, yourself included].

While Olmert came hat in hand begging for cash, AIPAC [among others] adamantly wanrned him to concentrate on security and make money one of the least important objectives of the meet. This is just one illuistration of how the Lobby does NOT act as a mouthpiece for Israel. It tries to mold Israeli policy to make is more palatable for America, not mold American policy to make it more palatable for Israel.

I have been lied to? Haha. Is it possible perhaps that you might have been lied to by the so called "left?"

Moono: Again you claim that HAMAS has abided by an alleged "Ceasefire." Last time you stated this I proved you wrong and all you could say was"they MOSTLY abided by it."

Even if you do not consider Qassams landing on people's heads as a violation [almost all are the work of HAMAS], the group attempted 3 so called "suicide bombings" during that interval and while in power has allowed other groups to do as they please in terms of terrorism.

It has been IRREFUTABLY proven to be a successful protective measure. the reduction to almost nil is proof positive. as I have shown here and in one other thread today, the so called "Ceasefire" could not have had anything to do with it.

"Territorial booty." Has it occurred to you that had Israel truly been pot for land, it would not have ceded Sinai, abandoned Gaza, and getting ready to do the same to 94% [or more] of the "West Bank?" How do you explain that?

 

[moono]

How do you explain that?

Because Israel has been like a little dog with a big bone. Arse kicked out of Lebanon, 'withdrawal' from Gaza to concentrate forces on West Bank land theft.

The Hamas ceasefire lasted 18 months. If they'd have broken it they'd have said so and any IOF claims to the contrary are propaganda, imo.

You simply won't know if the stockade will be successful in blocking Hamas until Hamas attempt to breach it, and they've yet to try that. If they DO decide to breach it I'm sure they'll succeed, unfortunately. Let's hope they see the relative sense of confining their operations to the occupied territories. There is no victory in dead Israeli civilians other than making the stupid stockade look stupid.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

And if you're here as a result of his reporting my post, then that speaks volumes...

nope it's cos fridge has been following this thread, as it has been particularlly heated and personal, hence me warning you above off topic things being frowned upon...

Garfield: First off, I never claimed that "Palestinian" students were not being taught actual subjects. The racist material is taught primarily in three classes: I] Islam [mandatory subject in PA schools, christain Arabs almost always attend private schools], II] History, and III] Citizenship [known in the West as Social Studies]. It is taught from 1st form through last.

that simply isn't true in any manner in which you are attempting to suggest it, as well you know, or perhaps you don't ... you pronouncements are getting less and less factual and more and more the stuff of fantasy and nonsense...

As for schools you have visited, I cannot comment. Only you know about that. I do know however that I was last in the so called "West Bank" in the last week of March and found the books, in Arabi, still in wide use by all grades.

where?

name schools places etc...

I cannot for a second imagine some one with your attitude or candour being invited into schools in the west bank, give some more details eh??

This is a well known phenomenon that is continuously reported by mainstream outlets. I have no reason to make things up. Let me ask you, have you ever read the HAMAS Charter? If you have, and if you are lucid enough to realise that HAMAS is in charge of the curriculum, how could you EVER suspect that it is not true? Sadly, the curriculum is not new, it predates HAMAS by many years.

i haven't read the current hamas charter becuase as you well know it hasn't been released yet as they are still deciding it...

the pa has set the ciruiculum in most of the schools, if you are attempting to suggest that all schools are hamas run prior to their election and therefore their assumation of the pa then again this is is the stuff of fantasy...

The Ceasefire has caused the 94% reduction in attacks from areas bordered by the "Barrier," not the "Barrier" itself? The thing is, PIJ has never acknowledged any alleged "Ceasefire." To that end, although HAMAS, al Akhsa, Fatah, and Tanzim HAVE acknolwedged and signed off on it, they have continued to attack Israeli civilians. Also, PFLP never signed off on it and has also continued attacking. Ergo, your point makes no sense.

again you are lumping the brigades in with the ligitimate politcal parties, why do you continue to blur the line ... during the ceasefire there were no bombing and the only attacks were made as reltaliation for the isreali actions... this is a simple cause and effect equation with out the cause there is no effect you cannot expect there to be cause and there to be no effect, it defies all common experince and the cause has been repeatdly the IDF action, and the isreali governmental action... the effect has been thousands of palestinians attack harrassed arrested from 10 upwards and inturned fo anything from 5 weeks to 60 years with out trial for anything from being the family member of a suicide bomber through to trying to attend school... this is common knowledge and irrifuteable, no matter how much you twist and turn spilling out lies and mistruth, this is the attacks of which i seek added to of course the extra judiceral killings, house occupations, evictions, harrasement etc... again all documented and detailed and irrifuteable...

Your claim that the "Barrier" has caused an increase on attacks against "Palestinians" is ludicrous. Please explain that one.

the construction of the barrier has increased the attacks on palestinians living in it's path as their homes are demolised land confiscated.... for example i went to one farm where the farmer had been attacked his shot shot his other son kidnapped with out explaination no information was forth comming all for farming nearly half a kilometer from the apartide segrigation barrier, they did nothing other than attempt to farm there land... their neighbour was shot dead... for farming, within the community of around 300 families not one had not been daily harrassed attacked injured of killed ... indeed in order to get into this village we had to spend over an hour debating the finer points with soliders about our free passage...

so please don't bullshit like this again the evidence is there is irrifuteable and well documented...

see this would work if you were debating with people who'd not experinced this, who have no conncetions to palestine, who don't know people whose families had been iviviserated by the IDF and the isreali govt actions, but once people have seen it first hand and witnessed it, been attacked themselves by those very same IDF soliders for daring to document the brutal and shamefull attacks it really doesn't work as anything other than a fairy tale of how you might wish it to be...

it's only your own conceit which blinds you to this...

 

[Lock&Light]

There is no victory in dead Israeli civilians other than making the stupid stockade look stupid.

I am left wondering how a stupid stockade could look otherwise?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I am left wondering how a stupid stockade could look otherwise?

When it is presented to people who don't want to engage their intellects too much as a "safety" barrier.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I am left wondering how a stupid stockade could look otherwise?

well we could start with images of farmers going to work and being strangled ...

then we could continue with images of percussion grenades being thrown at children buying bread

these are by no means unique indeed i have over 5,000 such images, video and so on demonstrating the level of stupidity the illegal apartide barrier causes the disharmony the disgusting level of inhumane treatment we could have one an hour if you'd like to provide the hosting and band width it'd take over 328 years to post each of them...

 

[moono]

I am left wondering how a stupid stockade could look otherwise?

A stupid stockade might not look stupid in the eyes of the stupid. If a stupid stockade were made to look stupid then even the stupid would know it was stupid.

Wonder no more.

 

[Lock&Light]

"Stupid Boys!"

As Capt. Mainwearing would have said.

(Edited to be more inclusive.)

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: Israel was not kicked out of Lebanon. It decided that defensive stance instead of a proactive stance would be more to its advantage . Easier to sell yourself to the world when bombs are being tossed over your border, instead of when you are several kilometers over that border.

"HAMAS held the ceasefire for 18 months." Even if you do not consider Qassams to be a violation, and even pro-"Palestinians" admit it is, what about attampted suicide bombings? HAMAS nev er held to it. It violated less than a week after it was inked.

"If HAMAS had violated the ceasefire they would have saids so." Right, cause they are the epitome of upstanding and honest people. If you say so...

"If HAMAS wanted to, it could easily get around the 'Barrier'." Wrong. There is nothing but electrified fence aroung Gaza and they have not even managed to infiltrate that. How do you think they will dow ith 24 foot walls?

Garfield: Name schools? First off, one does not need to name schools to know the PA curriculum since it is lsited for all to see. Subjectively, I was last on the Bank lass than a month and half ago and aside from Counter Ops I did Machshon work. I searched kiddies' school bags coming and going [al Yamoun and also in Jenin Camp and Jenin City]. I saw more books then you ever will.

Still, names will make you happy? I will pull some out of the air, as if it means anything.

al Jaba CoEd. It is on Main Road # 354 in al Jaba, near Qalqilya. It is on a hill, with cacti around it. Pretty nice, newly built with Gulf cash. You will find the racist curriculum there.

As you will in Jayon's Boy's Elementary. That one is in Jayon of course. It is down the road from Jayon Prep.

Talita Kumi High School in Beit Jala. Also on a hill, off the Hiway.

Kaffer Eddik School in Saleet. This one is brand new, built with US cash. Beautiful building.

Should I go on? What does this prove anyway?

"Being invited into schools?" Are you a comedian? I am an Israeli soldier. I enter many schools, regardless of an invitation. In fact, I have been in "West Bank" schools when they used Jordanian materials.


You claim to have been to the "West Bank?" What did you go for? When?

"Current Charter." What? Utter nonsense. A HAMAS rep TRIED to SUGGEST a revision in April and was almost assasinated. There is no revision. There is nothing being changed or rewritten. Try reading the Charter and stop making excuses, please.

Who said anything about HAMAS setting curriculum? the PA CURRICULUM IS RACIST. Is that clear enough? By the way, HAMAS is now running the PA. the only thing they do not have dominion over is the Security Forces and they are attemting that as I post. that is why it is virtually a civil war.

"During the ceasefire there was no bombing." OK, let us see if you willa ctully apologise and/or admit that you were wrong.


HAMAS


09/26/05:Sasson Nuriel was abducted and murdered, HAMAS claimed responsiblity.

12//07/04: Suicide bomber detonates near Karrni, killing 20 year old Nadav Kudinsky

I can find plenty more...even if you totally omit Qassams of which no less than 6 have been fired in any 24 hour period since Israel left Gaza, almost all by HAMAS according to the group.

You want the other groups as well?

The only attacks were for retaliation? guess what? that is bogus. It is widely documented that HAMAS' first violation , less than a week after, was the premature detonation of a suicide bomber on Philadelphi road in Rafah. He only killed himself but that is a clear violation. In addition I demonstrated above that HAMAS DID bomb during the time specified. Also, it did not begin 18 months ago. Please get THAT straight at least.

 

[moono]

Rachamim;

"HAMAS held the ceasefire for 18 months." Even if you do not consider Qassams to be a violation, and even pro-"Palestinians" admit it is, what about attampted suicide bombings? HAMAS nev er held to it. It violated less than a week after it was inked.

Inked ? You ain't even on the park, let alone the ball. Hamas ceasefire was unilateral. Nobody was consulted, no meetings arranged and nobody else, particularly the Zionists, were involved.
If you're refering to Abbas truce of February 2005 then it was the Zionists who broke it the very next day, a settler murdering a Palestinian.


Hizb Allah kicked the IOF out of Lebanon, Rachamim. It was a combination of heavy losses and domestic pressure.

 

[astronaut]

Hizb Allah kicked the IOF out of Lebanon, Rachamim. It was a combination of heavy losses and domestic pressure.

Only a fantasist would really believe Hizbollah "chased" Israel out of Lebanon.

Their attrition tactics were not really doing all that much damage, they were mostly ineffectual.

I think it was more a combination of:

1) Labor party regaining power after Bibi lost election, realizing they were perpetuating Sharon/Likud policy, and wanting to demonstrate some success after failure of Oslo

2) Realizing there was not a good enough reason to crush Hizbollah (since the damage Hizbollah was doing was small), and unwillingness to needlessly sacrifice casualties to do it (as a solution, a new invasion would be worse than the problem)

Withdrawal was pragmatic rather than "chased" out.

 

[moono]

Only a fantasist would really believe Hizbollah "chased" Israel out of Lebanon.

More generalised nonsense from a pimp of pap.

 

[Lock&Light]

More generalised nonsense from a pimp of pap.

Despite that being clearly your 'considered' opinion for a whole thread, plus more, you still feel it necessary to tell us all that all over again!

 

[moono]

That would have been funny, L&L, if I hadn't included the text to which it related, but I did, so it isn't.

If you still think it is, seek help.

Incidentally, I can't locate a thread which you've initiated. Are you some form of lame duck reservist support or purely a cyberparasite ? Just interested. Lol.