Did Palestine really exist?

[nino_savatte]

I would say that you are making a good case for forgetting about history and living in the present. What matters is who is there now, and who was born there. They are the natives and in a free land have rights. Sadly religion gets in the way but an acceptance of freedom of movement and freedom of religion should not get in the way much. Anyone oppressed on basic rights in their own homeland are prisoners.

Have i got this right?

Yes and no. What I'm trying to say is that Israel has no more right to exist than Palestine. Israel was violently carved out of an already existing territory against the wishes of many of the people living there. Iraq, on the other hand, was formed - not for the people who lived in the 3 vilayets - but for the sole purpose of providing the British Empire with oil. It is truly an imaginary place. The Middle East was partitioned by imperialists and we live with the consequences of their actions today.

 

[nino_savatte]

A slight return...

Nino: Stating that Jews have continuously lived on that land since the fiorst Jews settled [conquered] there almost 4000 years ago does NOT exclude other people. The point is to establish a connection to the land, not offer a complete natural history.

That's odd because you have used this argument to exclude non-Jews from the equation. The non-Jewish inhabitants also have an equal claim to the land.

No one's asking you to provide a "natural history". Though what you mean by that is puzzling.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: Having been very close with many Phalangists I have never heard the claim that Maronites are descended from Crusaders, although certainly some are. There is however an Islamic tribe in Saudi Arabia said to be directly descended from Crusaders who converted. They are very keen on imagining the Phoenecian lineage though. National Geographic [of all things] put that to rest though [for most].

Also, it goes beyond just specifying that a Maronite should be president. in fact, it was not the Constitution but an unwritten agreement that specifies that the President comes from one group, PM from another, and the speaker from yet a third [Sunna, Shia, and Maronite].

Dwyer: You are a liar, as I very well did audit them. In fact, if you would like to continue via p.m., I will expose you. As for year, etc. Again, take it to pm. better yet, contact me via p.m. and we can take it to IM to see what's what. I love the frauds here. such nonsense.

As for "ackowledging." Let me say it again so you do not get confused again: SAID IS EGYPTIAN, FROM CAIRO. HIS FAMILY IS EGYPTIAN. the closest that fraud ever came to a "struggle" was standing on Lebanese soil and throwing pebbles at an IDF post IN FRONT OF CAMERAS. Hope that helps.

Nino [agaon]: no, non-jews do not have a valid claim, although Jews have been pragmatic and allowed the people now calling themselves "Palestinian" to share the land with them. As for non-jews that lived in the previous Jewish states, they are extinct. Most Arabs have lkess than 150 years there, 350 at most.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

So glad you clarified that. I wouldn't want to think that you were using the word to refer to my skin colour.

eh?

you are a virtual entitiey with no skin how the hell could it....

you mean there is really a human called nino who might be a she-he monkie darlek with skin....

i think you're having me on..

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

unless you're blue and white...

are you blue and white?

do you get blue and white monkies

 

[phildwyer]

Dwyer: You are a liar, as I very well did audit them. In fact, if you would like to continue via p.m., I will expose you. As for year, etc. Again, take it to pm. better yet, contact me via p.m. and we can take it to IM to see what's what. I love the frauds here. such nonsense.

As for "ackowledging." Let me say it again so you do not get confused again: SAID IS EGYPTIAN, FROM CAIRO. HIS FAMILY IS EGYPTIAN. the closest that fraud ever came to a "struggle" was standing on Lebanese soil and throwing pebbles at an IDF post IN FRONT OF CAMERAS. Hope that helps.

Said never allowed anyone to audit his classes, the first thing he used to do every semester was chuck out anyone who wasn't registered. Probably because he didn't want spies such as yourself creeping in unnoticed. So you are lying about this. Defend your honor, if you can, by telling us which classes you audited. You will not do so, because you are a liar.

As for his being Egyptian, that is another, yet more obvious lie. He was born and raised in Jerusalem. Do you think he could have got away with claiming this throughout his long public career if it were not true?

You have now comprehensively discredited your cause with these two easily exposed lies. You have brought shame and ignominy on Zionists everywhere with your cheap falsehoods. A truly pathetic performance.

 

[rachamim18]

Uh Dwyer, those that have bbeen here longer than you will tell you that I have had this discussion almost 2 years ago. At that time I DID publicly state that information. Now I would rather relegate off thread subjects to personal messaging, where they belong. Again, if you would like, you and I can have this conversation via p.m., or better yet on IM so that there is no possiblity of deceit. Of course I do not know why I am offering this because people like you do not care if the truth slaps them. They ignore it under any circumstance. Still, to shut you up, I will do it. Be an adult and leave the thread to the thread.

Born in Jerusalem? Well, since you again bring it up, he was publicly exposed 8 years before he died and managed to tapdance around it for a couple of years more. In the end only BAI here in the city took him serious. Even the Voice dismissed him.

Notice how I talk of Said, and you talk of me. Notice how I talk of the subject, you of personality. Time for a wake up call. this thread is not about me. It is not about you. Again, if you want to continue this nonsense, take it to p.m.

Pathetic, shame, lies and not one iota of subject matter. Sad...

 

[phildwyer]

Born in Jerusalem? Well, since you again bring it up, he was publicly exposed 8 years before he died and managed to tapdance around it for a couple of years more. In the end only BAI here in the city took him serious. Even the Voice dismissed him.

Bullshit. But PM on its way.

 

[moono]

What a pity. I enjoy exposures of Rachamim, even though they're a little hackneyed.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Uh Dwyer, those that have bbeen here longer than you will tell you that I have had this discussion almost 2 years ago. At that time I DID publicly state that information. Now I would rather relegate off thread subjects to personal messaging, where they belong. Again, if you would like, you and I can have this conversation via p.m., or better yet on IM so that there is no possiblity of deceit. Of course I do not know why I am offering this because people like you do not care if the truth slaps them. They ignore it under any circumstance. Still, to shut you up, I will do it. Be an adult and leave the thread to the thread.

Born in Jerusalem? Well, since you again bring it up, he was publicly exposed 8 years before he died and managed to tapdance around it for a couple of years more. In the end only BAI here in the city took him serious. Even the Voice dismissed him.

Notice how I talk of Said, and you talk of me. Notice how I talk of the subject, you of personality. Time for a wake up call. this thread is not about me. It is not about you. Again, if you want to continue this nonsense, take it to p.m.

Pathetic, shame, lies and not one iota of subject matter. Sad...

Translation:

bollocks cuaght lying by someone who knew him fuck, cunt, well if i make this post long enough it'll cover up the truth with yet more durge and lies ...

<aside>shit what if he posts up proof then i'll look like a cock too.... fuck....</aside>

right send me a pm with your proof no need to post it here chap....

<aside>looks down

thank fuck for that fooled him...</aside>

 

[ViolentPanda]

Translation:

bollocks cuaght lying by someone who knew him fuck, cunt, well if i make this post long enough it'll cover up the truth with yet more durge and lies ...

<aside>shit what if he posts up proof then i'll look like a cock too.... fuck....</aside>

right send me a pm with your proof no need to post it here chap....

<aside>looks down

thank fuck for that fooled him...</aside>

 

[moono]

phildwyer;

You ( Rachamim) have now comprehensively discredited your cause with these two easily exposed lies. You have brought shame and ignominy on Zionists everywhere with your cheap falsehoods. A truly pathetic performance

Yeah. I keep telling him that he just inflates the stereotype but he keeps posting anyway. Lol.



.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Bullshit. But PM on its way.

really post it here mate i for one am heartly warming to you on this thread...

pwn him...

 

[phildwyer]

really post it here mate i for one am heartly warming to you on this thread...

pwn him...

Well apparently Rachamim and I weren't at Columbia at the same time. But I find it completely implausible that he could have audited one of Said's courses, they were very hard even to register for, and he always chucked out anyone who wasn't registered. And you pretty much had to be a graduate student in literature to even be considered, and Rachamim wasn't one of those. Rachamim, if you want me to believe you, you'll at least have to tell me the name of the course you say you audited--here or by PM.

As for the claim that Said wasn't a Palestinian, it is madness, desperate madness, and was only ever made in one loonspud article, which has been comprehensively refuted in print--one such refutation has been cited on this thread--and is really not worth dignifying with a response.

 

[pk]

For once I'll agree with "phildwyer", and applaud him on exposing Rachmaninov for the lying shitfuck he clearly is.

Well done "phildwyer", you eventually achieved usefulness... like a bullet in a barrel will eventually reach its errant fish...

 

[nino_savatte]

eh?

you are a virtual entitiey with no skin how the hell could it....

you mean there is really a human called nino who might be a she-he monkie darlek with skin....

i think you're having me on..

"having you on"? What is that supposed to mean? You realise the there are many racist white people who refer to blacks as "monkeys"? Or had that thought ever occured to you? Fir the record, I happen to be black (well, mixed race) and I don't take kindly to the suggestion that I am a "monkey".

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: Having been very close with many Phalangists I have never heard the claim that Maronites are descended from Crusaders, although certainly some are. There is however an Islamic tribe in Saudi Arabia said to be directly descended from Crusaders who converted. They are very keen on imagining the Phoenecian lineage though. National Geographic [of all things] put that to rest though [for most].

Also, it goes beyond just specifying that a Maronite should be president. in fact, it was not the Constitution but an unwritten agreement that specifies that the President comes from one group, PM from another, and the speaker from yet a third [Sunna, Shia, and Maronite]

First, the constitution of 1926 states that the president must be a Maronite. Secondly, you were "very close with many Phalangists"? If I were you I wouldn't be terribly proud of that. Indeed it says an awful lot about your political inclinations.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

"having you on"? What is that supposed to mean? You realise the there are many racist white people who refer to blacks as "monkeys"? Or had that thought ever occured to you? Fir the record, I happen to be black (well, mixed race) and I don't take kindly to the suggestion that I am a "monkey".

for the record you could be a bot put on a channel for all i care all i see of you is blue and white default urban screen style and black text... the internet has no artifical barriers such as concepts of race

we go here on urban by peoples posts not by their appearence, summit i would expect implictly you would know hence and playful taunt to you can be seen as nothing more reflective than that.

try and cast me as a racist again and see where it get's you, drop the attitude and grow up.

 

[nino_savatte]

for the record you could be a bot put on a channel for all i care all i see of you is blue and white default urban screen style and black text... the internet has no artifical barriers such as concepts of race

we go here on urban by peoples posts not by their appearence, summit i would expect implictly you would know hence and playful taunt to you can be seen as nothing more reflective than that.

try and cast me as a racist again and see where it get's you, drop the attitude and grow up.

Drop what "attitude"? You used the word "monkey" and I took offense. Are you black, Garf? Have you ever been subjected to racial abuse?

You express some nice sentiments about the Internet, though it's a pity that the reality is rather different.

Oh and please don't tell me to "grow up", it's extremely patronising.

Just to add: I wasn't calling you a "racist". I merely pointed out how the word "monkey" has been used as an insult to black people.

 

[astronaut]

I merely pointed out how the word "monkey" has been used as an insult to black people.

Holds breath. Counts to ten. Thinks better of it. Clicks submit reply.

 

[moono]

Pity. Dumpties should know their place.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Oh look. The personal-insult-no-content meter is going up again.

 

[rachamim18]

Dwyer: Of course I'll p.m. it although my having already explained how I audited it should have been sufficient. By the way, anyone can look up the roster and see what classes were taught, by whom, and so forth. The point being, you are not proving or disproving anything. I also want to point out that since our exchange was via p.m., there is no reason for it to be repeated in this thread. In fact, it has no relation to this thread [which of course was the reason we went to p.m.]. Is it getting clear yet?

I will always answer any question [about me] by anyone, as long as it is via p.m. and offered with civility. I would think that in this case though, that energies would be much better spent iniating a thread on the late "Professor." He courted controversy in his professional and personal life and there is definitely enough fodder.


PK: Uh, your expletives aside, my credibility is never the issue in this forum. The subjects of threads ARE. Still, noone discredited me ever so I do not know why you are clicking your heels.

Nino: I must go against my own advice and better judgement and engage in just a tad bit of off thread banter. You are offended by the word "monkey?" A monkey is a cute simian. It is not a racist term. Likening a black person to a monkey however COULD certainly be construed as racist [although the poster had no way of knowing that you had African blood]. You belittled people for daring to suggest that the word :shyster" is offensive to Jews, and then try to turn the subject on its head by claiming offense at "monkey!" Amazing...

Close to Phalangists? Of course I am. I served in Lebanon for over 3 years Nino. Furthermore, I was assigned to the Tigers' Liason, and later worked in tandem with Haddad [SLA]. At that time most Maronite youth were in the movement.

 

[Gmart]

Here are another couple of letters from the Independent for you all to ignore

How this Israeli child was indoctrinated

Sir: Paul Gross tries to justify Israel's brutal occupation of Palestinian territories by claiming that "the evil clerics of Hamas indoctrinate children to hate and teach them that the surest route to Paradise is in the mass murder of innocent civilians" (letter, 9 June). If that is indeed the case they must have learned some instructive lessons from the Israelis.

As an Israeli born and bred I was brought up to believe that the Palestinians/Arabs are our sworn enemies who have to be defeated on the battlefield. At the age of 16 I was enlisted (as part of a school education programme ) to the Gadna (youth battalions) where I received a pre-army training, and on leaving school , at the age of 18, I was conscripted to the Israeli army for two years where I served on the front line when Israel invaded Egypt in 1956 , and as a reservist in the 1967 war when Israel launched a surprise air strike, crushing the Egyptian air force in few hours.

I wonder whether Mr Gross believes that the Palestinians have no right to retaliate and resist the indiscriminate killing of nearly 700 small children and minors who were shot dead together with several thousand non-combatant Palestinians between september 2000 and April 2006. Are they all to be dismissed as "collateral damage" from one of the most relentless and enduring occupations in present-day history?

RUTH TENNE

LONDON NW6

Sir: As a Palestinian I feel I should respond to the letter by Cllr Wayne Casey defending Israel's "security wall" (12 June).

If the wall is truly being built for security purposes, why does it cut through the West Bank for much of its path? Leaving legality issues aside and accepting Israel's premise for the moment, surely leaving tens of thousands of Palestinians on the "Israeli" side of the barrier defeats its purpose?

Even if the barrier could be proved to have temporarily reduced the number of Palestinian reprisal attacks, it is hardly a basis for lasting peace between the two peoples. Even supporters of Israel must realise that its construction is not in the longer term interest of the Israelis themselves and will not guarantee them the security they seek; quite the contrary.

RIYAD TIBI

MARLOW, BUCKINGHAMSHIRE

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Oh look. The personal-insult-no-content meter is going up again.

don't you start i have insulted no one ...

if you or nino wish to demonize me as racist for a totally inoccious comment you can both get to fuckery...

i don't know nino nad have no fucking idea who or what colour they are, much less care, jesus fucking fucking wept theres some uptight arseholes around this forum.... i'm begining to think that nino could start a bar fight in solitary confinement... thats one hell of bad attitude going on there...

i have shown what i meant by monkie, hence the mikey dolan comment, even went further to say that all i could see was blue and white, the default fucking urban skin for vbulletin, if that's racist someone both needs their heads knocking together... how the fuck is perception of forum colours an issue of race...

how fucking dare anyone throw around the racist cardin this manner

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Drop what "attitude"? You used the word "monkey" and I took offense.

that's your problem i used the word monkie and explained you then went of no some mental tangent of your own making and got upset by your own hyperbol...

Are you black, Garf?

how is the relevant... and frankly it's none of your business but no arab/english and your point it can only be a racist one if you are choosing to define people by colour...

Have you ever been subjected to racial abuse?

why is racism a black only thing... theres an ideal eh?

yeah loads not least from some pratts on urban who have deemed i dont' look arab enough but also in france in the 80's where is wasn't permitted for arab kids and white kids to mix in any real context other than in having seven shades of shit kicked out of you...

You express some nice sentiments about the Internet, though it's a pity that the reality is rather different.

moreover you claim to have an intrest in the threads you post it would appear that in reality all you are doing is exoprcising the paranoid complex you are manifesting looking for fights where there are none...

Oh and please don't tell me to "grow up", it's extremely patronising.

more patronising than some dick head taking an inoccious comment to an anyomous bulletin board poster and deemed to turn it into a matter of race becuase you are too stupid to understand humour or that in nonvisual communication race skin colour or any fucking thing else matter not one jot it's what you say that counts... you by your actions today have marked you self out as a prize cunt...

Just to add: I wasn't calling you a "racist". I merely pointed out how the word "monkey" has been used as an insult to black people.

yeah yeah, bullshit, you know damn well what you were inferring and it's your own problem no one elses now take your immature attidue and play hide and go fuck yourself...

totally unaccept indeed more offensive than just about anything else posted on this thread....

way to go at totally permenantly and irrevicoably ruining any crediblity you ever had here, you are joke and really can't be taken seriously after this outburst...

apologise or fuck off ....

 

[rachamim18]

GMarthews: I too was raised and educated in Israel and can offer that the write is a blatant liar. In fact, while Israeli text books up until the mid 70s DID have derogatory lessons on Arabs [the worst I can think of is a book for tots that says something like "When moshe grows up he wants to be an engineer or doctor like his dad. When Ahmed grows up he wants to be a camel herder like HIS dad." not intelligent but nothing at all like the PA curriculum] it did not teach hate like the Arab curriculums do [take your pick of which Arab].

The PA STILL uses books that demean Jews as the product of human and animal sexacts, as inherently evil and so on. The Holocaust is deemed fiction. The Protocols are deemed truth.

I too was enlisted at 16, except that I was sent to war, not weekend camping. the author is a woman so in fact she is lying about her military service as no woman saw front line action, save in 48 and then only very rarely.

Although she did grow up in a difficult time, she offers no examples of so called indoctrination.

As for the second letter...

The "Barrier" exceeds the Green Line [by 4%] because demographics have changed considerably since 67. It needs to protect Jewish population centers that have cropped up in a few areas along the Line.

"10s of thousands of Arabs left on the other side, defeating the purpose." the purpose was never to exclude Arabs. It is to protect Israelis. All Arab areas effected by the "Barrier" are Israeli Arab communities that had existed side by side with "Palestinian" communities. Surely some of the "Palestinians" were caught "behind lines" but only if they built illegalu. those that were forced to cede property, etc. were compensated so that in the end it was made as equitable as possible.

"Even if the 'Barrier' could be proved to have temporarily reduced the number of attacks, it is hardly the basis for lasting peace..." First off, it HAS been proven. It has reduced all attacks from areas bordered by it by more than 94%, and fatal attacks by more than 80 odd percent. It is not a temporary reduction as the "Barrier" is not a temporary structure [at least as far as Arab terror is not temporary].

It is not meant as a "basis for peace." It is meant as a protective measure. Plain and simple.

i am sorry, what did this have to do with the subject of the thread again?

 

[nino_savatte]

that's your problem i used the word monkie and explained you then went of no some mental tangent of your own making and got upset by your own hyperbol...

how is the relevant... and frankly it's none of your business but no arab/english and your point it can only be a racist one if you are choosing to define people by colour...

why is racism a black only thing... theres an ideal eh?

yeah loads not least from some pratts on urban who have deemed i dont' look arab enough but also in france in the 80's where is wasn't permitted for arab kids and white kids to mix in any real context other than in having seven shades of shit kicked out of you...

moreover you claim to have an intrest in the threads you post it would appear that in reality all you are doing is exoprcising the paranoid complex you are manifesting looking for fights where there are none...

more patronising than some dick head taking an inoccious comment to an anyomous bulletin board poster and deemed to turn it into a matter of race becuase you are too stupid to understand humour or that in nonvisual communication race skin colour or any fucking thing else matter not one jot it's what you say that counts... you by your actions today have marked you self out as a prize cunt...

yeah yeah, bullshit, you know damn well what you were inferring and it's your own problem no one elses now take your immature attidue and play hide and go fuck yourself...

totally unaccept indeed more offensive than just about anything else posted on this thread....

way to go at totally permenantly and irrevicoably ruining any crediblity you ever had here, you are joke and really can't be taken seriously after this outburst...

apologise or fuck off ....

Apologise for what? Better still, I'll pm you when I have the time. Right now, I'm just bored of this shit.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The PA STILL uses books that demean Jews as the product of human and animal sexacts, as inherently evil and so on. The Holocaust is deemed fiction. The Protocols are deemed truth.

this isn't ture for the large part the schools ihave visited have an arabic version of the national ciriculum moreover care to quote isreali vs' palestinian univercity entrance statistics... now then if they aren't being taught real informaiton how do they enter univercity are they speacil antisemetic uni's with antisemetic degrees...

stop lying in such a stupid manner... it's really, really ineffect to spread lies that the most basic googling in 30 seconds uncovers as bullshit...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Apologise for what? Better still, I'll pm you when I have the time. Right now, I'm just bored of this shit.

or alternatively you could say oh it was a joke sorry didn't get it apologise for the misunderstanding, big arsed sorry about calling you a racist... even after you pointed out to me repeatdly that i had hold of the wrong end of the stick i still perceived this as a racist attack. due to my past experinces i'm a little jumpy about this type of thing.

then i could say fair do's sorry if you took offense it really wasn't meant in that manner...

and that would be that...