Did Palestine really exist?

[GarfieldLeChat]

thank god!!!

t'was predictable tbh ...

 

[rachamim18]

Zamb: I have never heard of that man or his article. My info is based on personal research. The man was born in Egypt. He went to school in Egypt. His family is from Cairo. He never even saw the land until he was middle aged. the man was an Egyptian English Professor at Columbia, trying to buy stature with tales to gullible kids.

Your article is nonsense. He never attended St Georges because the school has no record of him, regardless of alleged anecdotal evidence offered by elderly teachers.

As for "smearing dead men's reputations," time for a reality check. The man made himself a public figure. In fact he wanted it so bad that he lied to get it. Public figures open themselves to criticism and this does not suddenly stop when they die. Have you stopped using his name to support your position? Oh....You can use it to make your claim but people cannot then dispute this portion of your claim because the man you use is dead? Right...got it.

GMarthews: Again with "history means nothing." Again with," 'Palestinians' feel so opressed that they want to lay down their lives as bombers." In the words of a 22 year old "Palestinian" mom of two who blew herself up, "I love my two children so, so much but I love to meet G-D so much more." IT IS A CULT. A cult of martyrdom. It has very, very little to do with opression. curfews and checkpoints do not inspire people to kill. Statehood is theirs for the asking. There would be no Israeli presence at all if they stopped. attacking Israelis.

Compromise? Hmmm...You mean then that accepting only 30% of your ancestral homeland, voluntarily cedeing control of your holiest shrine, and accepting only a sliver of arable land is not compromise? Oh, you must mean AFTER the communal violence, right? So the plan I outlined, offered in 93 was not a compromise? All of E. Jerusalem, all of Gaza, and 97% of the WB is not compromise?

HAMAS offer to recognise Israel if Israel withdrew to its 1967 borders? When? Where. You are completely mistaken. You are confusing Abbas' proposed referendum. HAMAS has in fact said the exact opposite. It DID say however that it WOULD consider abiding by a 10 year LIMITED ceasefire IF Israel withdrew to the 67 borders, but no recognition under any conditions. Please get your facts straight.

Nino: Please start reading my posts instead of skimming them if you are going to respond to them. I said, ALL RELIGIOUS JEWS speak Hebrew, albeit not as their mother tongue for the last 2500 years. Yiddish by the way, was only the lingua franca of the Ashkenazi. Other languages like Ladino were spoken by other groups. Both Yiddish and Ladino only date from the Middle Ages. Prior to that, it was a myriad of Judeo languages based on host nations' langauges [Judeo Italian, Judeo Arabic, and so on]. Predating that it was Eastern Aramaic.

Again with the off thread banter. Sigh...

Fridge: Thank you, finally.

Oh, and for the record, in Israel we usually do say "kaka" as the slang for feces. I know everybody needed to know that.

 

[ZAMB]

Zamb: I have never heard of that man or his article. My info is based on personal research. The man was born in Egypt. He went to school in Egypt. His family is from Cairo. He never even saw the land until he was middle aged. the man was an Egyptian English Professor at Columbia, trying to buy stature with tales to gullible kids.

You are so sure of this - perhaps you were present at his birth??

The article that I posted was written to try to stop people like you smearing Said's name. Not much point with you, though, as you have already proved that you have tunnel vision where anything/anybody Palestinian is concerned.

 

[phildwyer]

Zamb: I have never heard of that man or his article. My info is based on personal research. The man was born in Egypt. He went to school in Egypt. His family is from Cairo. He never even saw the land until he was middle aged. the man was an Egyptian English Professor at Columbia, trying to buy stature with tales to gullible kids.

Edward Said was a personal friend of mine. You are a liar.

 

[Gmart]

Compromise? Hmmm...You mean then that accepting only 30% of your ancestral homeland, voluntarily cedeing control of your holiest shrine, and accepting only a sliver of arable land is not compromise? Oh, you must mean AFTER the communal violence, right? So the plan I outlined, offered in 93 was not a compromise? All of E. Jerusalem, all of Gaza, and 97% of the WB is not compromise?

Ancestral homeland eh? History means nothing by that rationale if the Native Americans could get big enough guns they could invade the USA
Ceding control of you holiest shrine eh? Still reckon it's not about religion eh?

HAMAS offer to recognise Israel if Israel withdrew to its 1967 borders? When? Where. You are completely mistaken. You are confusing Abbas' proposed referendum. HAMAS has in fact said the exact opposite. It DID say however that it WOULD consider abiding by a 10 year LIMITED ceasefire IF Israel withdrew to the 67 borders, but no recognition under any conditions. Please get your facts straight.

Sadly for you i remember his interview with the BBC when Hamas had just won. They offered, Israel ignored it and the media moved on as ever. I heard his offer with my own ears. Now maybe one might argue that it was a Hudna ceasefire that he was offering and that after ten years they might turn round and start fighting again but still the offer was made. Israel don't want peace. Both sides offer what the other cannot accept, or won't accept so the war continues.

Here is the link to the thread i started at the time.

Found any pro-Palestinian cartoons in the US press yet? Thought not, found lots which are pro-Israelis though funny that!

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: Please start reading my posts instead of skimming them if you are going to respond to them. I said, ALL RELIGIOUS JEWS speak Hebrew, albeit not as their mother tongue for the last 2500 years. Yiddish by the way, was only the lingua franca of the Ashkenazi. Other languages like Ladino were spoken by other groups. Both Yiddish and Ladino only date from the Middle Ages. Prior to that, it was a myriad of Judeo languages based on host nations' langauges [Judeo Italian, Judeo Arabic, and so on]. Predating that it was Eastern Aramaic.

Again with the off thread banter. Sigh...

Okay, you say "all religious Jews" . Which religious Jews might these be? The Rabbinate? Would all of these Jews have spoken a form of Hebrew that predates the modern version?

 

[rachamim18]

Zamb: Now someone has to be present at someone else's birth in order to know for a fact where they were born? Ok, got it. stupid me, here I was thinking that the birth certificate proovided by the Egyptian govt. was suffcient. Same with his Cairo parochial school records.

People like me? you mean people who care to know the truth and hope others do as well? the kind that do not take the words of Lingusitics and English Professors at face value in the fields of politics and history? Ok, I'll take your word.

Dwyer: Sure he was, and his mom was my laundress, so what? I audited him at Columbia so I probably know him better that you but that is neither here nor there. Let us assume he is your friend. Let us also assume that he was actually a "Palestinian." So what? does that make his omnipotent? the man was a half rate English Professor, not a poalitical scientist, not a historian. You liked him? Great! So what?

GMarthews: Again, if the Native Americans could, I would be happy. they have been spat upon for centuries by bigoted Europeans. more power to them. what Europeans have done to the Native Americans of South and Central America is one of the worst crimes against humanity that the world has ever seen. For the life of me I cannot imagine why you would ever imagine that I would be against the Native Americans gaining national sovereignity.

"Holiest Shrine." Israel is a secular state. However, the majority of its citizens adhere to Judaisim. As such , it is their holiest shrine. they should not be deprived of access to it under any condition...as they were when it was defamed by Arabs under Jordanian occupation.

GMathews: "BBC interview." Provide exact date and relevant information or it is a figment of your imagination. I would bet money it is since that claim was been pissed on by him and the organisation before and after. Again, he claimed that HAMAS would CONSIDER abiding by a 10 year limited cease fire [actually the word is "hudna" which has an entirely different meaning but I will not get into that for brevity's sake] IF Israel withdrew to its 67 borders.

Of course you are again ignoring the fact that Israel offered all of Gaza, E. Jerusalem, and 97% of the "West Bank" in 1993. Arabs refused it. Funny how you just skip right by that for the third time.

Thanks for the link but what does a post by you, without any sources, saying the same thing prove? It is useless.

"Political cartoons." Again, I do not collect political cartoons. Again, I DO collect political articles. Would you like some? Better yet, check out the CAMERA site? Admittedly CAMERA is highly biased but in providing actual outside articles that fact is irrelevant. check the articles on the site if you care at all about the subject [as opposed to oration].

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: All religious Jews means ALL RELIGIOUS JEWS. Of course it predates Modern Hebrew but you are a bit confused. Modern Hebrew is almost identical to Classical Hebrew. Again, it is not like Classical and Modern Greek.

 

[astronaut]

Okay, you say "all religious Jews" . Which religious Jews might these be? The Rabbinate? Would all of these Jews have spoken a form of Hebrew that predates the modern version?

Nino, just face it, there are two Israelis/Jews here, and both say that Hebrew has been used/spoken for the past 2000 years, so why not believe them? It is a Zionist myth that Hebrew was brought back to life - you argue against other Zionist myths, so why do you insist on believing this one?

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino, just face it, there are two Israelis/Jews here, and both say that Hebrew has been used/spoken for the past 2000 years, so why not believe them? It is a Zionist myth that Hebrew was brought back to life - you argue against other Zionist myths, so why do you insist on believing this one?

Then why was Modern Hebrew created?

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: All religious Jews means ALL RELIGIOUS JEWS. Of course it predates Modern Hebrew but you are a bit confused. Modern Hebrew is almost identical to Classical Hebrew. Again, it is not like Classical and Modern Greek.

How is it "identical"? How is it possible to recreate - verbatim - and ancient language with its grammar and its pronounciation all intact?

From what I've read, Hebrew was not as widely spoken as you suggest. The vast majority of Jews considered themselves as citizens/natives of whatever country they happened to be living in. They spoke the local languages and took local names. This says to me that Zionism wasn't popular either and that the modern form of Hebrew is part and parcel of the construction of a particular identity, that existed outside the localised environments of the various Jewish communities. It is how national identities are created in almost all circumstances.

 

[astronaut]

Then why was Modern Hebrew created?

To unify the Jews from different countries who spoke dozens of different languages.

The fact that they chose Hebrew is because all these Jews from different countries knew at least some Hebrew.

Anyway, like Rach said, modern Hebrew is almost identical to biblical Hebrew, except in modern Hebrew they tidied up some grammatical inconsistencies and introduced new words for modern concepts.

A fluent speaker of modern Hebrew can read the bible in Hebrew and understand everything without any difficulty whatsoever.

 

[Gmart]

When did this thread turn into one about Hebrew?

If you want to start a new thread please feel free and leave a redirect.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: Modern Hebrew was created because words for items like electricity, etc. needed to be created.

It is not neccessary to recreate an ancient language because it was never dead. Its grammar, pronounciation, etc. has always been intact.

Jews have always , as a general rule, tried to be good citizens of the nations in which they reside. It is a religious dictum, AS LONG AS Jewish Law is not contradicted, it always comes first. This has nothing to do with preserving their language.

 

[Lock&Light]

If you want to start a new thread please feel free and leave a redirect.

I find it rather odd that certain people just feel free to go on as if nothing had happened.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I find it rather odd that certain people just feel free to go on as if nothing had happened.

they do and they'll get banned again as a result...

why place yourself in that boat again too... eh?

come join the light side of your lock innit ....

I like nino but they are an arguementative fucker at times...

the question has to be why would you allow it to happen again...

eh??

 

[nino_savatte]

I like nino but they are an arguementative fucker at times...

"They"? There's only one of me!

 

[Lock&Light]

they do and they'll get banned again as a result...

why place yourself in that boat again too... eh?

come join the light side of your lock innit ....

I like nino but they are an arguementative fucker at times...

the question has to be why would you allow it to happen again...

eh??

I'm not totally certain how to respond to all or any of that, so I'll settle for, "I wouldn't disrupt the Middle East forum, if I was you".

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

"They"? There's only one of me!

well you could be she or he or eh-she... (but prolly monkie thnking about it...)

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I'm not totally certain how to respond to all or any of that, so I'll settle for, "I wouldn't disrupt the Middle East forum, if I was you".

that's the point i was trying to make to you before innit

 

[Lock&Light]

that's the point i was trying to make to you before innit

Do you mean, "Don't do what I do, just do what I preach." ?

I had a father a bit like that.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Do you mean, "Don't do what I do, just do what I preach." ?

I had a father a bit like that.

no up till me trying to tell you to chill and responding to you now i think you'll find that i'm nearly always on topic with my responses, the only possible disrutpion was an attempt to intervine in you getting yourself banned, which failed... if you'd rather not view it as that and get all bitter about it or whatever fair doo's your issue ...

 

[Lock&Light]

no up till me trying to tell you to chill and responding to you now i think you'll find that i'm nearly always on topic with my responses, the only possible disrutpion was an attempt to intervine in you getting yourself banned, which failed... if you'd rather not view it as that and get all bitter about it or whatever fair doo's your issue ...

I've known you now (as far as the internet allows) for over four years, and therefore I cannot accept that you are not a disrupter.

 

[nino_savatte]

So what is my point? All nations are imaginary constructs: that is to say, if they don't exist, they must be created and the way a nation is created depends upon the dominant voices within the particular socio-cultural formation in question and how, or whether they (the dominant culture), shares power or not.

We have heard how some accept the belief that nations are legitimated if they share some lineage (imagined or otherwise) with a long dead kingdom or empire. If we take the example of Lebanon (once again) we see that this state was created by the French, as a recreation of the County of Tripoli, a crusader state that existed some 900 years before the mandate. Of course the Phoenicians occupied the territory long before the Crusaders, though this didn't seem to matter (have you ever met a Phoenician...or a Carthaginian?). The constitution was drawn up in 1926 which divided power among the religious groups but specified that the president had to come from the Maronites (allegedly descendants of the Crusaders). This sowed the seeds for future conflict. The country had been deliberately divided into groups rather than be created as a secular democracy with non-sectarian political parties.

I'm going somewhere with this but I'm pressed for time. More later.

 

[nino_savatte]

well you could be she or he or eh-she... (but prolly monkie thnking about it...)

"Monkie"?

 

[phildwyer]

Dwyer: Sure he was, and his mom was my laundress, so what? I audited him at Columbia so I probably know him better that you but that is neither here nor there. Let us assume he is your friend. Let us also assume that he was actually a "Palestinian." So what? does that make his omnipotent? the man was a half rate English Professor, not a poalitical scientist, not a historian. You liked him? Great! So what?

That's interesting, I knew him when I was at Columbia too, and we kept in touch after I left. I happen to know that Said did not allow *anyone* to audit his classes, so perhaps your memory is failing you? And perhaps you and I knew each other too--when were you there? Anyway, the point is that in your earlier post you *denied* that he was Palestinian, which was either a lie or a very bad mistake. As you now seem to acknowledge.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I've known you now (as far as the internet allows) for over four years, and therefore I cannot accept that you are not a disrupter.

i on the other hand cannot except that you are the sardonic person you attempt to portray yourself as... or that you are oblivious to the deliberately obtuse manner in which you post and the utter consitination it causes...

but enough of the love fest i'd tried to help you out it didn't work you got yourself banned, in future if some one warns you it might be an idea even if you assume the poster to be an ijet just to look over at where they are shouting just in case when they shout duck they mean it... or keep banging your head ... that's your call innit...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

"Monkie"?

yeah prolly mike dolans

 

[Gmart]

So what is my point? All nations are imaginary constructs: that is to say, if they don't exist, they must be created and the way a nation is created depends upon the dominant voices within the particular socio-cultural formation in question and how, or whether they (the dominant culture), shares power or not.

We have heard how some accept the belief that nations are legitimated if they share some lineage (imagined or otherwise) with a long dead kingdom or empire. If we take the example of Lebanon (once again) we see that this state was created by the French, as a recreation of the County of Tripoli, a crusader state that existed some 900 years before the mandate. Of course the Phoenicians occupied the territory long before the Crusaders, though this didn't seem to matter (have you ever met a Phoenician...or a Carthaginian?). The constitution was drawn up in 1926 which divided power among the religious groups but specified that the president had to come from the Maronites (allegedly descendants of the Crusaders). This sowed the seeds for future conflict. The country had been deliberately divided into groups rather than be created as a secular democracy with non-sectarian political parties.

I'm going somewhere with this but I'm pressed for time. More later.

I would say that you are making a good case for forgetting about history and living in the present. What matters is who is there now, and who was born there. They are the natives and in a free land have rights. Sadly religion gets in the way but an acceptance of freedom of movement and freedom of religion should not get in the way much. Anyone oppressed on basic rights in their own homeland are prisoners.

Have i got this right?

 

[nino_savatte]

yeah prolly mike dolans

So glad you clarified that. I wouldn't want to think that you were using the word to refer to my skin colour.