Did Palestine really exist?

[nino_savatte]

The Shah (a vile brutal dictator) celebrated the anniversary for one reason only: to claim some form of legitimacy, which in turn was a claim to some form of lineage (no matter how spurious). The Persian Empire was long dead by the time he got to the throne. Of course, few folk talk about his father, who seized power in a coup in the 1920's. Interestingly enough, Islam Karimov of Uzbekistan celebrated the legacy of Tamur Leng (Tamberlaine) by recreating Samarkhand. No prizes for guessing why he did this.

As I pointed out suicide bombings began with the Nihilists in Czarist Russia. Suicide attacks are nothing new and actually began with the Knights Templar.

Perhaps you would also support the claim of the Assyrians while you're at it. After all, the Brits promised them a homeland too. How about all the other kingdoms that have disappeared? Why stop at Judea?

I have never seen or heard of the CIA "narration."

Of course you haven't but you are rather familiar with narratives, are you not? Take this idea of yours that the BBC is anti-Jewish; this is a narrative provided and constructed by a combination of neo cons, Zionists and rapturists. It holds no water here but right wing Yanks lap this stuff up without asking where it comes from....you included.

This is typical

Now Jews on the other hand, have the same language, same religion, most of the same customs so that a Jew from the roman Era would recognise much of today's Jewish life. See a bit of a difference Nino?

Are you telling me that Hebrew has been spoken consistently for over 2,000 years? Pull the other one. You use arguments like this to justify the land rights and the right to brutalise others. In many respects your ethno-centricism is reminiscent of the a certain group of people who held power in Germany during WWII. Btw, there weer other peoples living in the land now called Israel, it was only Jews...was it?

Another cannard

ure you can. That comment is ridiculous. In other words, you are saying that because the Jewish Kingdom [last one] ended 2000 years ago, it can never be reestablished on the basis of having once existed. That is absurd.

Again, how about the Assyrian Empire...or perhaps you would support the right of Turkey to annexe Central Asia. After all, that's where they originated.

 

[astronaut]

Are you telling me that Hebrew has been spoken consistently for over 2,000 years? Pull the other one.

Of course it has. Jews have been using Hebrew all during that time.

You obviously don't know anything about Jews to make such a claim.

 

[Lock&Light]

Funny, Garfeied and Fridge see fit to take Lock to task for offsubject antics while remaining strangely mute when it comes to one of the biggest causes of off tangent nonsense in the entire site. Personally, not that my view matters in this area, I wish ALL people would take personalities out of the equation.

Thanks for pointing that out, Rach. In fact I have got used to the blatant bias that has been stacked against me for some years now on Urban. I had hoped for better from Fridge, but there you go.

 

[nino_savatte]

Thanks for pointing that out, Rach. In fact I have got used to the blatant bias that has been stacked against me for some years now on Urban. I had hoped for better from Fridge, but there you go.

You still haven't dealt with my point, Lock.

As for your last point, you were finally told off and not before time either.

This is revealing

blatant bias that has been stacked against me

A persecution complex to go with your superiority complex. Have you ever considered psychotherapy?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Thanks for pointing that out, Rach. In fact I have got used to the blatant bias that has been stacked against me for some years now on Urban. I had hoped for better from Fridge, but there you go.

perhaps chap there is no bias but a definitive feeling that sometimes you are wrong in your actions, which brings about a convergence of peoples opinions about your actions...

it's not that there are secret meetings where you are discussed and there are plans put forward; it's a consensious of people all eminating the same idea toward your behaviour, which when you think about it is sadly more damning than the concept of a circle jerk of reaction...

 

[nino_savatte]

Of course it has. Jews have been using Hebrew all during that time.

You obviously don't know anything about Jews to make such a claim.

Nonsense, the current form of Hebrew was devised in the 19th century.

You obviously know nothing about Jews or Judaism to come out with crap like this.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Nonsense, the current form of Hebrew was devised in the 19th century.

You obviously know nothing about Jews or Judaism to come out with crap like this.

how much of modern hebrew comprises of yiddish if any ??

 

[astronaut]

Nonsense, the current form of Hebrew was devised in the 19th century.

You obviously know nothing about Jews or Judaism to come out with crap like this.

Have you ever looked at a Torah scroll or a Hebrew Bible?

What language is it in?

Swahili?

Modern Hebrew is very heavily based on Biblical Hebrew.

That is why any Modern Hebrew speaker can read and understand 100% of Biblical Hebrew.

 

[astronaut]

how much of modern hebrew comprises of yiddish if any ??

Relevance?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Relevance?

in establishing the time line of the modern lexicon of hebrew as a modern language; again if you knew the slightest thing about jewish culture you'd know that the large majority of current isrealis came from europe where yiddish not hebrew was almost exculsivley spoken meaning that it's likely that a great deal of yiddish words woul dhave been absorbed into the modern lexicon of hebrew as the language was under developed as it fell into disuse...

or were you asking about your own relevance to this thread...

in which case little as i can make out...

 

[astronaut]

it's likely that a great deal of yiddish words woul dhave been absorbed into the modern lexicon of hebrew as the language was under developed as it fell into disuse...

Well if you knew anything about modern Hebrew, which apparently you don't, you would know that there is very little Yiddish in modern Hebrew.

But still, what is the relevance of this comment? It doesn't detract from the fact that Hebrew has been used for 2000 years by Jews.

 

[Lock&Light]

perhaps chap there is no bias but a definitive feeling that sometimes you are wrong in your actions, which brings about a convergence of peoples opinions about your actions...

There is a clear bias here against anyone who does not think that the Palestinians are all in the right, and the Israelis all in the wrong.

Against anyone, in fact, who refuses to see the world as being black and white.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: On the Shah, it is exactly my point. however it does not negate the legacy of the Jewish People. Unlike the Shah, today's Jews have an unbroken lineage to the Kingdom of Judea.

The Assyrians? Yes, in fact I do as they have suffered terrbily. however, any solution for them should include Chaldeans as well. All Aramaic speaking peoples would benefit.

I am a right wing yank? If you say so.

Yes, Hebrew HAS been spoken CONSISTENTLY for 2000 years. Actually, all religious Jews speak it. Most though have not used at their first language, since long before the dissolution of Judea. Modern Hebrew is very, very close to Classical Hebrew. It is not like modern and ancient Greek.

Other people have ALWAYS lived in the Jewish nations, but as protected minorities.

Turkey does not need central Asia as it has its own nation. your argument is flawed.

Garfield: Even with the current influs of Jews from the former USSR, Sephardim and Mizrachim make up more than 60% of Israelis. Of the 40% , 11% are non Ashkenazim as well [like Bukhari, etc]. Please do your research. Even if it were 90% Ashkenazi, Ashkenazi are directly descended from the same forbears as the other 2 major groups.

Yiddish dates only from the 11th Century CE/AD, and although it was once the first tongue of most Ashkenazi, that disappeared [except among Chassidim] with holocaust. In any event, your hypothesis makes no sense. To answer you though, most agree that Yiddish is more than 20% Hebrew. Its main constituient is Old German.


If you are asking about yiddish words in Moedern Hebrew, the answer is that there are practically no Yiddish words in Modern Hebrew. In fact, we use alot of Arabic in our slang.

Astronaut: Hebrew has been used for 4000 years, although most have not used it as a mother tongue for 2500 years [until the last 100 or so years of course].

Lock: You are right.

 

[moono]

Hookey mincers.

 

[ZAMB]

ZAMB: Chomsky and Said? Pleaseee. Said was an Egyptian pretending to be "Palestinian." The man was a charlatan.

http://www.counterpunch.org/said1.html

As a matter of fact, Said was not only born in Jerusalem (as was his sister five years later) but went to St. Georges. After asking Said for the name of a teacher (something Weiner surely could have done at some point in the course of his protracted research), we talked to Michael Marmoura, now emeritus professor at the University of Toronto, who well remembers teaching Said at St. Georges, saying he was ''a bit of a rascal, very naughty,'' and whose father baptized the infant Said in an Anglican church in Jerusalem. Yes indeed, Marmoura says, the Saids were well-known as an old Palestinian family.

As I predicted, you weren't keen on Said and Chomsky as historians on this documentary. I've already seen your opinion of Chomsky elsewhere, but you're really reachings the pits when you smear the reputation of a dead man.

 

[TAE]

For what it's worth

Modern Hebrew is very similar to the ancient Hebrew found in the Torah/Tanach.

My sister is learning both.

 

[Gmart]

GMarthews: The letter from the Independant means nothing. The ridiculous nonsense about the 67 borders is insane! Israel was agreeable to that since 1919. In 93 Israel Israel offered all of Gaza, 97% of the "West Bank," and all of East Jerusalem. the "Palestinians" refused. It has never been about an imaginary "Occupation." As Hamas and the 25 other militant groups say, they will only rest when ALL of the land is theirs. This is a fact.

I appreciate this attitude and have stated for the record that despite my sadness at the means the Israelis used to get Israel, I accept that the Palestinians need to accept that they have been invaded and get on with it. We could do with the Israelis ensuring that the Palestinians marginalise their resistance through ensuring that there could be no accusation of oppression. Sadly, through not doing this, they have perpetuated the image of the Palestinians as prisoners in their own land.

But primarily History means nothing and though the Palestinians have a good case for oppression in the past they need to join the queue. The only problem is the statistics which are against the Palestinians. Every act of oppression will create more Palestinians prepared to lay down their lives until Israel learns to stop oppressing.

The route of the wall also doesn't help. It's almost as if having won the war the Israelis are deliberately rubbing their Palestinian noses in it. Until the Israelis start acting with some fairness so that normal Palestinians can turn around and just accept the present (leaving history to fade) then problems will continue. Maybe even to the extremes where millions may die. The Israelis thus need to learn to compromise even when they are the victors. Again not going to happen, thus no peace again due to Israelis lack of compromise.

By the way Hamas offered to recognise Israel and work towards peace if Israel withdrew to the 1967 borders, but Israel ignored this.

Basically Israel just wants it all and sod anyone that gets in their way.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: On the Shah, it is exactly my point. however it does not negate the legacy of the Jewish People. Unlike the Shah, today's Jews have an unbroken lineage to the Kingdom of Judea.

The Assyrians? Yes, in fact I do as they have suffered terrbily. however, any solution for them should include Chaldeans as well. All Aramaic speaking peoples would benefit.

I am a right wing yank? If you say so.

Yes, Hebrew HAS been spoken CONSISTENTLY for 2000 years. Actually, all religious Jews speak it. Most though have not used at their first language, since long before the dissolution of Judea. Modern Hebrew is very, very close to Classical Hebrew. It is not like modern and ancient Greek.

What do you mean "exactly your point"? "Unbroken lineage to the Kingdom of Judea"? You know something? I'm fed up with these hoary auld ancient excuses for the continued brutality towards others. Jews were not the only people living in the land that is now called "Israel".

Are you telling me that all Jews spoke Hebrew? Pull the other one. The vast majority of Jews spoke either Yiddish or a local language. Unless you're thinking of the rabbinate and that's a different matter altogether.

Aye, you are a right wing Yank. Who else would send links to some the most vile right wing organs in the US?

 

[nino_savatte]

Have you ever looked at a Torah scroll or a Hebrew Bible?

What language is it in?

Swahili?

Modern Hebrew is very heavily based on Biblical Hebrew.

That is why any Modern Hebrew speaker can read and understand 100% of Biblical Hebrew.

How about you my fraudulent friend? can you read Hebrew or are you trying to pull a fast one?

You're a bullshitter.

 

[astronaut]

How about you my fraudulent friend? can you read Hebrew or are you trying to pull a fast one?

You're a bullshitter.

Find me a paragraph in Hebrew on the internet, make sure there is no translation available, and I will translate it. Fair enough?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Well if you knew anything about modern Hebrew, which apparently you don't, you would know that there is very little Yiddish in modern Hebrew.

But still, what is the relevance of this comment? It doesn't detract from the fact that Hebrew has been used for 2000 years by Jews.

or indeed not

Hebrew (עִבְרִית ‘Ivrit) is a Semitic language of the Afro-Asiatic language family spoken by more than seven million people in Israel and Jewish communities around the world. In Israel, it is the de facto language of both the state and the people, as well as being one of the two official languages (together with Arabic), and in addition, it is spoken by an overwhelming majority of the population.

The core of the Tanakh (the Hebrew Bible) is written in Classical Hebrew, and much of its present form is specifically in the dialect of Biblical Hebrew that scholars believe flourished roughly around the 6th century BCE, near the Babylonian Exile. In light of this fact, Jews have called Hebrew לשון הקודש the "language of Holiness" (Lĕshôn Ha-Kôdesh) since ancient times.

Most linguists agree that after the 6th century BCE when the Neo-Babylonian Empire destroyed Jerusalem and exiled its population to Babylon and the Persian Empire allowed them to return, the Biblical Hebrew dialect prevalent in the Bible came to be replaced in daily use by new dialects of Hebrew and a local version of Aramaic.

After the 2nd century CE when the Roman Empire exiled the Jewish population of Jerusalem and parts of the Bar Kochba State, Hebrew gradually ceased to be a spoken language roughly around 300 CE, but remained a major literary language during the centuries since. Not only was it used for religion, but for a large variety of purposes. Letters, contracts, commerce, science, philosophy, medicine, poetry, justice codes, all resorted to Hebrew, which thus adapted to various new fields and terminologies by borrowings and inventions.

Hebrew was revitalized during the late 19th and early 20th century as the spoken language of Israel, called Israeli Hebrew or Modern Hebrew. Eventually it replaced a score of languages spoken by Jews at that time, such as Ladino (also called Judezmo), Yiddish, Russian, and other languages of the Jewish diaspora.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language

more rubbish and inaccuracy from the astropompos...

 

[nino_savatte]

Find me a paragraph in Hebrew on the internet, make sure there is no translation available, and I will translate it. Fair enough?

I'm not here to run and fetch things for you. What do you think I am? Your servant?

Fuck off, massah.

 

[astronaut]

I'm not here to run and fetch things for you. What do you think I am? Your servant?

Fuck off, massah.

Don't want to be proven more of a goat that you already are?

 

[nino_savatte]

Don't want to be proven more of a goat that you already are?

You're not doing very well, astroturf. Scratch the surface and the true arsehole is revealed; the arsehole who claims to be Jewish and a peacenik but then contradicts all that in the following posts.

I noticed how you avoided Garf's post. Why is that? No, don't tell me, I haven't the time for your weak excuses.

 

[astronaut]

more rubbish and inaccuracy from the astropompos...

I gave you the example of the Torah, which is in Hebrew, and has been used for the last 2000 years.

Also, the Jewish prayer books are mostly in Hebrew, with some Aramaic in there as well, and they are used three times per day.

So, you are talking rubbish. Hebrew has definately been used on a regular basis by Jews for 2000 years.

 

[astronaut]

the arsehole who claims to be Jewish and a peacenik but then contradicts all that in the following posts.

GIVE ME EXAMPLES!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[astronaut]

One example?

Can you?

 

[nino_savatte]

I gave you the example of the Torah, which is in Hebrew, and has been used for the last 2000 years.

Also, the Jewish prayer books are mostly in Hebrew, with some Aramaic in there as well, and they are used three times per day.

So, you are talking rubbish. Hebrew has definately been used on a regular basis by Jews for 2000 years.

Sorry, protest all you like; Hebrew has not been spoken consistently for the last 2,000 years. Modern Hebrew was devised in the 19th century or would you dispute that?

Yiddish, on the other hand, has been spoken consistently for nearly 1,000 years (at a guess).

 

[astronaut]

Sorry, protest all you like; Hebrew has not been spoken consistently for the last 2,000 years.

Oh fuck off donkey. It's more productive to hit my head against concrete than to argue with you.

 

[nino_savatte]

GIVE ME EXAMPLES!!!!!!!!!!!

Why should I? Your posts are all over this forum and they speak volumes about you: the constant shifting of goalposts, the lies, the diversions and the insults.