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Did Palestine really exist?

Did Palestine Exist before Israel?


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What do genetic similarities [not identical] have to do with places one calls home?


Plenty actually. Gotta give this point to Moono. Jews and Arabs are all of common descent.

If you have a region with a homogenous population, you will get genetic similarity. No two regions will have the same genetic patterns.

People from the population who depart take their DNA with them, but their history can be traced back to where they originated.

Nevertheless, the term "anti-Semitism" applies ONLY TO JEWS, and it takes an arrogant dumbass to try to change it.
 
You're a common or garden Zionist sympathiser, astronaut, disguised as a Dumpty.
You're also wrong. Anti-Semite means anti-Semite, not anti-jewish. Semite doesn't mean 'jewish', you see, although you evidently wish it did. Tough titty.

No, it isn't racist. 'Jewish' isn't a race , you see, although you evidently wish it was.
http://www.porchlightfilms.com.au/jewboy.html


So, you're incorrect on both of your main platforms. Why not just stfu now ?

Gotta give this point to Moono

Please. I don't want your agreement in any shape or form. I have my self-respect to maintain. Thank you.
 
YMU: Your "facts" about the lush nature of pre-Zionist "Palestine" all come from a letter oenned by an Arab -American pastor in rebuttal of an NPR [National Public Radio] show called the "Savvy Traveller." In the edition in question, the host took an in depth look at Ottoman Era travellers' accounts on "Palestine." Of course the good reverend took offense at the suggestion that the land should ever be described as arid and inhospitable. So, unbeknownst to NPR, the reverend plagiarised almost an entire chapter of a self published book called "Encyclopedia of the Palestinian Problem" by Issa Nakhleh. The chapter in question is chapter II for any interested parties.


Why do I suggest that YMU got all his/her information from the letter and not the book [or the dozens of other "sources" aho have all repeated the errnoeous information almost verbatim]? Well, aside from the book being a real rarity [yes I have it ], the letter took on a life of its own and has become a staple of the revisionist crowd. Either way, the information is what is at the heart of YMU's post so let me adress it point by point.


I] Walter Lowdermilk [sic] the "Asssistant US Soil Conservation Agent who compared Palestinian soil to Californian soil, only Palestinian was uniformly better?" Aside from 1946 being 80 years after the Zionists first began reclaming the environment, there is no record of a Mr. "Lowdermilk" ever even existing, let alone working for the US Government.

II] Sandy's quote dated 1615 that roughly said, "A land [from which] flows milk and honey" was of course referring to a Biblical passage.

III] American Consul Henry Gillman who in 1856 recommends "Palestinian grafting techniques for the US Citrus Industry" means nothing in relation to the environment, only about "grafting techniques."

IV] Muqqadisi who is often claimed to have said inthe 10th Century of the Common Era [AD] that all manner of fruit grew in "Palestine" may or may not have said it. If so, so what? One tree can grow some fruit. It is a far cry from a "verdant land."

V] An anonymous person is quoted in the the 10th Century CE/AD as having claimed that "Palestine" "...was the most fertile of the Syrian provinces." Funny, as a person with roots in Syria , I can assure you that it is not saying much.

VI] Paul Masson says that in the 17th and 18th Centuries of the common Era [AD] "France was saved from certain starvation by wheat exports from Palestine." Some exports might have assuaged French hunger, again, so what?

All these little anecdotes add up to a big nothing. Noone is saying anything really. In fact, the real proof are in Ottoman [as the Ottomans hald onto the land for the roughly 500 years preceeding the Israel] censuses, appraisals, and such. All these point to land that was misused and abused for centuries.




Now, water...In 1967 Israel of course gained both Gaza and the so called "West Bank" after the nations [Egypt and Jordan respectively] who had claimed it last relinquished their hold. Almost immediately after gaining administration, the Israeli authorities provided more than 60 Arab towns with new water systems to replace the horrid, antiquated systems they had been left to use.

Then in the late 70s to early 80s the entire region suffered the worst drought in history. The drought ended about the mid 80s but its reprucussions were felt well into the 90s. Water levels sank to their lowest in recorded history...
As a result Israel was forced to prohibit all drilling for water. In dry times, overusage ofthe water table, which is shared by Israel Proper, would cause seepage of salinated water and ruin the resources of all peoples. In the absence of any kind of authority on behalf of the Arabs, this was completely Israel's call. In fact, International Water Law completely backs Israel up.

Due to this terrible drought, all regional nations agreed to a joint conference to be held in Turkey at the end of 1991. Syria sabotaged the meeting and it never took place.

Shortly thereafter, in January 1992, Moscow hosted multilateral talks, to be attneded by all regional nations. A working group on water issues was set to take place but Syria, Jordan, and the "Palestinians" boycotted these talks andagain a good opportunity was lost.

Finally Oslo I and some concrete progress. Taking advantage of this momentuum, a multilateral working group held talks on the issue in Oman in 4/94. It was there that Israel gained the endorsement for its plan to rehabilitate most water systems in mid-sized Arab communities in both Gaza and the so called West Bank."

It was at around the same time that Israel helped to create the "Palestinian Water Authority" [PWA] per the Oslo I agreements.

In 11/94 more multilateral working group talks were held. This time the location was Greece. Israel, Jordan, and the "PAlestinians" all agreed to regional cooeration on water issues. Sadly "Palestinians" never followed through.

A meeting was held in 95, in Jordan, and in Tunisia in 96. Neither produced much of anything and since then "Palestinians" have refused to meet on ths issue.

The bottom line, is just as in security issues, the "Palestinians" refuse to carry their own weight then complain when Israel makes unilateral decisons. They feel that there inequities? Come too the table.
 
rachamim18 said:
The bottom line, is just as in security issues, the "Palestinians" refuse to carry their own weight then complain when Israel makes unilateral decisons. They feel that there inequities? Come too the table.

Actually the bottom line is that the Palestinians have been invaded. For that invading force to then complain that they are not coming to the table to negotiate is laughable.

I feel that the sources do all point to the term Palestine being at least in colloquial use to refer to the people who were in that area from about 1700 onwards. Certainly this might not have achieved official status for some time, but that is not really relevant. What IS relevant is that there were people there who considered the area to be their home.

Another evidently ignored point is that it would seem that Jews and Muslims are indeed genetically the same due to common ancestry. We are all the same and for one set of people to put forward that they are better than another is ludicrous and self-delusional.

Worse is to use this 'difference' to invade the area, even if there have been Jews there for centuries (there have) and even if the scriptures say so.

YOU might feel that some of the sources quoted do not convince, but other here seem to find them very convincing. It is all a matter of point of view, you might easily dismiss the proof presented because they seem different to your existing agenda. Your proof can also be disproved. The Ottomans as rulers from afar may have little idea as to what was actually happening in Palestine. As overlords they may even feel that everyone other to themselves are a lesser race as is the traditional position.

As to water, it is not surprising that with millions suddenly turning up and wanting showers that this should end up as the basic issue. Water is precious and in a desert area all the more so. With more people comes the necessity to invest. All that is relevant seems to be the inevitable augmentation of this as a problem.

Over and over the Israelis have tried to get involved with solutions for the area but it is not surprising that the Palestinians don't want to have anything to do with their invaders. This is inevitable, though they should also accept that they have been invaded. This would be easier if the invaders didn't cast them as second class citizens, with an inferior religion. If the invaders had imposed a modern system with equality for all etc, then the area could possibly work towards peace. However the creation of the Jewish state with one true religion and without freedom of movement for ALL its people, means that the Palestinians will feel honor bound to fight for their rights until their rights and needs are addressed.

As ever if these issues and their urgency don't get addressed, then a nuclear device will inevitably be used, and no doubt the Israelis will act all surprised then too.
 
Israeli claims of benevolently managing water supplies in the West Bank would be acceptable and true, if it were not for the fact that Israeli's are allowed swimming pools, while Palestinians hover just above a state of perpetual thirst.
 
Rachamim;
Moono: What do genetic similarities [not identical] have to do with places one calls home? Arabs come from Arabia, Jews from Judea, pretty simple although you seemto be having quite a time with it. Both Jews and Arabs though acknowledge it and that is what counts, not soem European with a complex offering summary judgements.

You're a liarboy, Rachamim, and a disgrace.

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We seek the return of all Palestinian refugees to their rightful land.

We seek to live in the land of Palestine as anti Zionist Jews. To reside as loyal and peaceful Palestinian citizens, in peace and harmony with our Muslim Brethren. Just as our ancestors lived in Palestine for centuries before the usurpations of this tragic century.
http://www.nkusa.org/aboutus/palestine/support.cfm

Hasidic protest in Montreal scares off UTJ rabbis' visit

The cancellation of the visit was the talk of the ultra-Orthodox street in Israel. Rabbi Steinman has long been a target for the barbs due to his support for professional training programs for the ultra-Orthodox, the ultra-Orthodox Nahal unit in the Israel Defense Forces and other issues.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/716845.html

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I had no idea that internal opposition to 'your kind' of Jew was so strong. Good.

Rachamim;
the kill was good

Yes, I'll remember.
 
Gmarthews said:
the creation of the Jewish state with one true religion and without freedom of movement for ALL its people, means that the Palestinians will feel honor bound to fight for their rights until their rights and needs are addressed.

As ever if these issues and their urgency don't get addressed, then a nuclear device will inevitably be used, and no doubt the Israelis will act all surprised then too.
Sounds like you're saying "nuke the Jews." This kind of hate I don't unerstand. Both sides in the I/P conflict have their share of blame/responsibility to bear. The Arab side has to understand that they stood with the Nazis in trying to destroy the Jews right after WW II. The Zionist side has to recognize that the Arabs they rule need a real country.
 
TomUS;
The Arab side has to understand that they stood with the Nazis in trying to destroy the Jews right after WW II.

Do leave it out Tom. Did the Zionists descend upon Italy, Russia , Japan ? That's a really seedy excuse for Zionist atrocity, particularly as most of that generation are deceased.
How about the Jews who actually collaborated with the Nazis ? What's your punishment for them, having their children shot and their houses crushed by bulldozers ? How about being walled in and stripped of their farms and livlihoods ?

Is this what todays Arab children 'have to understand' ?

They've got news for you, pal.
 
Moono, you have a racist chip on your shoulder -- and I'm not going to let you get away with it.



moono said:
You're a common or garden Zionist sympathiser, astronaut, disguised as a Dumpty.
You're also wrong. Anti-Semite means anti-Semite, not anti-jewish. Semite doesn't mean 'jewish', you see, although you evidently wish it did. Tough titty.


Anti-Semitism is hatred of JEWS, not anyone else, JEWS, and ONLY JEWS.

Saying that DOES NOT make me a Zionist, doesn't make me a fascist

Get it into your extremely thick skull -- ANTI-SEMITISM IS HATRED OF JEWS !!!!!


OED: anti-Semitism n. hostility to or prejudice against Jews.

M-W: anti-Semitism hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group

American Heritage: anti-Semitism 1. Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism. 2. Discrimination against Jews.


That's how EVERY dictionary defines it, that is how it is used by 99.9% of people, GET USED TO IT.



No, it isn't racist. 'Jewish' isn't a race , you see, although you evidently wish it was.


I find it EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE that you have the FUCKING NERVE TO DEFINE WHAT I AM.

Jews is a multi-dimensional concept -- religious, racial, ethnic.

Get fucking used to it.





A movie made BY JEWS, ABOUT JEWS.
 
I had no idea that internal opposition to 'your kind' of Jew was so strong. Good.


Neturei Karta have a maximum of 5000 members.

That makes them 0.00034% of the world Jewish population.

They are extremists - as offensive as you - and they are primarily motivated by racial purity - they believe other Jews are not pure blood Jews.

I would have thought you would condemn people like that - your failure to do so is extremely revealing.
 
You're mistaken. Shout and squeal all you like, the term was misappropriated.

SEMITE; A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Semite

The most prominent Semites today are Arabs and Jews. They are different in many ways, and they have absorbed a variety of European traits through centuries of migration and trade. The origin of Semitic languages, however, and many similarities in the stories of Islam and Judaism reflect a common ancient history.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/semites.htm


Semitic is a linguistic term referring to a subdivision of largely Middle Eastern Afro-Asiatic languages, the Semitic languages, as well as their speakers' corresponding cultures, and ethnicities. Although there is much debate about the scope of the word's "racial" use in the context of population genetics and history, as a linguistic term the language family is well-defined to include ancient and modern versions of Amharic, Arabic, Aramaic, Akkadian, Hebrew, Maltese, Syriac, Tigrinya, etc.

The negative form of the adjective anti-Semitic is almost always used as a MISNOMER to mean "anti-Jewish," specifically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semite

Understand, dumbo, Semites are Muslims AND Jews. 'Anti-Semitic' used to specify 'anti-Jewish' is a misnomer. 'Muslim anti-Semitism' is alive and living in your own thick skull.
Now why don't you stfu ? Or are you angling for an award in pedantic stupidity.
 
We seek the return of all Palestinian refugees to their rightful land.

We seek to live in the land of Palestine as anti Zionist Jews. To reside as loyal and peaceful Palestinian citizens, in peace and harmony with our Muslim Brethren. Just as our ancestors lived in Palestine for centuries before the usurpations of this tragic century.
http://www.nkusa.org/aboutus/palestine/support.cfm

Astronort;
Neturei Karta have a maximum of 5000 members.

Now let's see, your opposition would have led you to diminish their membership by, what, 200% ? Let's assume around 20,000 members then, and growing. Quite a handy bunch of allies, I'd say.

By the way, do you feel relieved that you don't have to wear your 'neutral' disguise any more ? Personally, shame of discovery would have driven me away, but hey, there's nowt so queer as folk.

Astronaut;
I find it EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE that you have the FUCKING NERVE TO DEFINE WHAT I AM.
Don't flatter yourself. I have no interest in you at all. You're an embarrassment, a bit of a nuisance and demonstrably wrong.

Astronaut;
Jews is a multi-dimensional concept -- religious, racial, ethnic.

No, 'Jewish' is a religion. You can choose to wear it like a coat, or not. The other aspect is the Semitic aspect and, well, we've just been there, haven't we.
 
Astronaut, read the 'Mission Statement'. They're recruiting. There might be a new Dumpty role in the offing.

http://www.nkusa.org/aboutus/palestine/support.cfm

In addition to condemning the central heresy of Zionism, we also reject its policy of aggression against all peoples. Today this cruelty manifests itself primarily in the brutal treatment of the Palestinian people. We proclaim that this inhuman policy is in violation of the Torah.

NKI seeks peace and reconciliation with all peoples and nations. This is especially needed in our relations towards the Islamic world where Zionism has for 53 years done so much to ruin Jewish - Muslim understanding.

Yep. I'll bet they'd soon find work for a plump Dumpty impersonator.
 
fuck me what a bunch of racist moronic scumbags. Brain dead fucking idiots who repeat tired old zionist shit in a big circle jerk to make themsleves feel better. Its ages since I'd read that shit that Rachy came out with, its almost funnyt. Till one remembers the people who were murdered to make his lies 'the truth'.

Against cunts like that, its rerally quite obvious why Hamas are so popular. And good luck to 'em.
 
You're mistaken. Shout and squeal all you like, the term was misappropriated.


That's a joke -- anti-Semitism was defined hundreds of years before there were millions of Arabs in Europe.

It is YOU who is misappropriating it -- you are denying the Jewish nature of anti-Semitism -- next you'll be denying the Holocaust, or denying that "Jewboy" is a racist term.

The racism against Arabs/Muslims today is 1% of what Jews have suffered -- you are trying to trivialize Jewish suffering.

Why hasn't a racist piece of shit like you been banned already?



Understand, dumbo, Semites are Muslims AND Jews. 'Anti-Semitic' used to specify 'anti-Jewish' is a misnomer. 'Muslim anti-Semitism' is alive and living in your own thick skull.


Do me a favor numbnuts - Semite is a misnomer is every respect, except when talking about a certain language group, so don't fuckin misnomer me.

ANTI-SEMITISM IS HATRED OF JEWS.

(That massive fullstop is there is make a point, and I'll underline it as well.)

Denying this FACT is akin to Holocaust denial, IMHO.




Or are you angling for an award in pedantic stupidity.


No, I'm going for 2 awards - 1) acting against racist pieces of shit, and 2) against extremism.
 
astronaut said:
"Muslim anti-Semitism"?! Is that when Muslims hate Jews?

"Jewish anti-Semitism"?! Is that when Jews hate Jews?

Anti-Semitism is hatred of Jews. Full stop. No argument possible. That is what it has always meant, and always will mean.

Hatred of Muslims has been given a new term: Islamophobia.

Get used to it Moono -- your extremist discourse is fucking offensive -- next you'll be denying that "Jewboy" is a racist term.
you are an idiot anti semitism would be the dislike of semites seeing as there is more than one group with in the semitic tribes this decription cannot be used exculisvly by the jewdaic tribe of semite... even though it has been attempted to mitigate all other tribes of semite in order to establish that the jewdaic tribe were the only one entitled to the land... it would of course be fairer to say that the semities were exiled from juda... n'est pas...
 
astronaut said:
Nevertheless, the term "anti-Semitism" applies ONLY TO JEWS, and it takes an arrogant dumbass to try to change it.
it doesn't but seeing as you are attemptin g to change it's meaning can we assume that you are and arrogant dumb ass for attempting to change it's meaning... :D
 
astronaut said:
Denying this FACT is akin to Holocaust denial, IMHO.



No, I'm going for 2 awards - 1) acting against racist pieces of shit, and 2) against extremism.
so that's 1) kill yourself 2)killing your self... good choice like it ... alot... gwan

for the statement and comparision of the incorrect meaning of the words anti semitism and the misappropreated context of the holocaust i submit that you are nothing more than a right wing knee jerk apologist....
 
GarfieldLeChat said:
seeing as you are attemptin g to change it's meaning



I am trying to change it's meaning?

Look in the dictionary.

Look in any dictionary.

YOU are trying to change its definition, not me.
 
for the statement and comparision of the incorrect meaning of the words anti semitism and the misappropreated context of the holocaust i submit that you are nothing more than a right wing knee jerk apologist....


Bullshit -- anyone who disagrees with you is a "right wing knee jerk apologist" -- EXACTLY like anyone who criticized Israel is an anti-Semite.

Garfieldlechat - No better than a settler

(That almost rhymes.)
 
It's a misnomer. It's been addressed. If you mean 'anti-Jewish' say 'anti-Jewish', not anti-Semite. Semites are Muslims AND Jews, amongst other smaller groups such as christians and druze. NO WAY does Semite relate specifically to Jews.
First, free the language. Then free the country. Or the other way around, no strict preferences apply.


Zionism has for over a century denied Sinaitic revelation. It believes that Jewish exile can be ended by military aggression.

Zionism has spent the past century strategically dispossessing the Palestinian people. It has ignored their just claims and subjected them to persecution, torture and death.

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/judaism_v_zionism.cfm

Rock on.
 
bl;imey astronaut, you really are very very stupid arent you?

Chambers Enbglish dictionary

anti-semite - a hater of Semites
Semite - speaking a Semitic language - Assyrian. Aramaic, Hebrew, Phoenicien, Arabic, Ethiopic, etc

So, you're a liar.

And a racist one. Until the early twentieth century, hatred of jews was known as 'judaeophobia', it started becoming called 'anti-semitism' only with the rise of zionism and the attempt to deny that there were any other semitic peoples, or that anyone (worthwhile) lived in Palestine. You're trying to carry that nonsense on. Silly boy.
 
belboid said:
Chambers Enbglish dictionary

anti-semite - a hater of Semites

So, you're a liar.



One dictionary that disagrees with ALL other dictionaries doesn't make ME the liar.

Anyway, Chambers?!! Who the hell uses Chambers?



Until the early twentieth century, hatred of jews was known as 'judaeophobia', it started becoming called 'anti-semitism' only with the rise of zionism and the attempt to deny that there were any other semitic peoples, or that anyone (worthwhile) lived in Palestine. You're trying to carry that nonsense on. Silly boy.


To which the only possible response is:

The word antisemitic (antisemitisch in German) was probably first used in 1860 by the Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "antisemitic prejudices" (German: "antisemitische Vorurteile")... In Treitschke's writings Semitic was practically synonymous with Jewish...

German political agitator Wilhelm Marr coined the related German word Antisemitismus in his book "The Way to Victory of Germanicism over Judaism" in 1879. Marr used the phrase to mean Jew-hatred or Judenhass, and he used the new word antisemitism to make hatred of the Jews seem rational and sanctioned by scientific knowledge.


Since political Zionism was formed in the mid-1870s/early-1880s, and Wilhelm Marr was a notorius anti-Semite, it is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY that Zionists created the term.

Your revisionist perspective is noted -- it was the Zionists who created anti-Semitism, and perhaps also caused the Holocaust? Is that what you're saying?
 
Lol. You sound like a Dumpty impersonator who has been stripped of her favourite slander.


Hold up, that's because that's what you are. Laugh.
 
moono said:
Lol. You sound like a Dumpty impersonator who has been stripped of her favourite slander.

Hold up, that's because that's what you are. Laugh.



What sort of discussion should I have expected with a racist / extremist like you?

Fuck you, you don't know shit.
 
christ astro, you are clutching at pathetic straws. I said the word was used with the rise of zionism ,not that zionists created it. It would hardly be the first time that a word was appropriated from 'the enemy' would it? and then you get so desperate you try and accuse me of being a holocaust denier of some kind. really really pathetic.
 
belboid said:
christ astro, you are clutching at pathetic straws. I said the word was used with the rise of zionism ,not that zionists created it. It would hardly be the first time that a word was appropriated from 'the enemy' would it? and then you get so desperate you try and accuse me of being a holocaust denier of some kind. really really pathetic.



If you are trying to deny that anti-semitism refers to hatred of Jews, that is revisionism -- it is trivializing persecution of Jews -- that is only a very short hop to Holocaust denial.
 
astronaut said:
If you are trying to deny that anti-semitism refers to hatred of Jews, that is revisionism -- it is trivializing persecution of Jews -- that is only a very short hop to Holocaust denial.

Anti-semitism, by its very definition, is a hatred against all semites...or would you deny that Arabs and Assyrians are discriminated against?
 
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