Did Palestine really exist?

[ViolentPanda]

So you didn't write very clearly:

Your point?

There's a difference between simple coincidence and factors that synergise. i.e. one doesn't cause another, but it can help it along.

 

[Lock&Light]

thinking that uncertainty at home was better than uncertainty in Palestine.

The one Jew who survived under my parent's protection during the Nazi terror quickly moved to Israel after the War, but such a move had never occurred to him as vital before the Occupation.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's a matter of them thinking the bad times would quickly pass, despite all the evidence to the contrary, or thinking that uncertainty at home was better than uncertainty in Palestine.

Yeah, that's right, they were all deluded, weren't they?

My extended family (my great-grandmother's siblings and their children and grandchildren) survived Stalin's famine and rape by fighting, the same as they'd fought back against every fucker who'd tried to hurt or intimidate them off of their land. They didn't think that "the bad times would quickly pass", because bad times were pretty much all they knew, which was why they sent the occasional child (including my great-grandmother) to live with relatives in England: They wanted those who showed promise to be able to do better, away from so much hate. They stood and fought and died at Nazi hands because they wouldn't leave the land and the country that was theirs.

I don't think my family were "heroes", but I don't believe they were "deluded" either. I know that they were steadfast, caring people who refused to be pushed around and, in my great-gran's words "refused the promise of land that belonged to the musselmen".

You appear to propose that Zionism was a solution to Judaeophobia, but that's exactly it, it was a solution for those who wished to find or live in a Jewish homeland, not the solution to all the problems of international Jewry

 

[ViolentPanda]

The one Jew who survived under my parent's protection during the Nazi terror quickly moved to Israel after the War, but such a move had never occurred to him as vital before the Occupation.

Some (before and after WW2) preferred to move to the US or other countries with large settled Jewish enclaves. Palestine was viewed by many as a fool's paradise for socialist dreamers.

 

[rachamim18]

Panda: Russia was your "family's land?" And you are a Jew? Are you only partly Jewish then? IF you are a 100% Jewish and think that Russia was EVER your family's land you are in need of some important history lessons, and fast.

Nino: First you deride me then make a fool of yourself. Galitzia was the "Pale of Settlement." It took in parts of what is now Poland, Russia, Moldova, andRumania.

 

[astronaut]

You appear to propose that Zionism was a solution to Judaeophobia, but that's exactly it, it was a solution for those who wished to find or live in a Jewish homeland, not the solution to all the problems of international Jewry

No-one came up with any better solution. I agree it was a lousy solution, all things considered, but there was no better one. As we saw in the Warsaw Ghetto, fighting back was not an option if Jewish continuity was important. Escape was however an option, and millions of Jews alive today, in Israel and around the world, owe their lives to the fact that Zionists gave them refuge.

I do not mean to defend everything that has happened since. I am arguing this point for the reason that to help solve the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, you have to understand what Zionism is all about -- and on Urban75 there seems to be many misperceptions (deliberate or otherwise) about Zionism and Israel. This whole argument on anti-Semitism implies that people here have little understanding of Zionist motivation -- and that is bad for the Palestinians, bad for the peace process.

 

[moono]

and millions of Jews alive today, in Israel and around the world, owe their lives to the fact that Zionists gave them refuge.

A lot more owe their lives to a Tommy bayonet with some guts behind it so how about the Zionists start to comply with the international laws that so many millions of non-Jews worldwide gave their lives for ?
You couldn't invent a more self-serving and unappreciative bunch of thieves and criminals if you tried.

 

[nino_savatte]

Panda: Russia was your "family's land?" And you are a Jew? Are you only partly Jewish then? IF you are a 100% Jewish and think that Russia was EVER your family's land you are in need of some important history lessons, and fast.

Nino: First you deride me then make a fool of yourself. Galitzia was the "Pale of Settlement." It took in parts of what is now Poland, Russia, Moldova, andRumania.

In your efforts to make yourself look like the big hard man, you make a prick of yourself yet again. There is a region of Spain called Galicia...it's not my problem if you can't get your ugly head around that - is it? Btw, the area called "Galicia" that you refer to was squeezed between Poland and Ukraine. Just so that you know (because you never provide proof such is your supreme arrogance) I have provided some links below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain) (capital Santiago di Campostela)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Central_Europe)


It is you who needs the history lesson as all you seem content to do is narrativise events to suit your agenda.

 

[astronaut]

A lot more owe their lives to a Tommy bayonet with some guts behind it so how about the Zionists start to comply with the international laws that so many millions of non-Jews worldwide gave their lives for ?

Did the Brits offer a solution to the "Jewish problem" or did they try to block immigration to Palestine?

Fact is, the Brits were too scared to take on Germany until they had no choice. Churchill was warning about Hitler for years before WWII, the Brits did nothing to stop Nazi persecution of Jews, even after the war started.

How many Jews died because of British cowardice? 6 million!

You couldn't invent a more self-serving and unappreciative bunch of thieves and criminals if you tried.

Coming from you, this is a compliment.

 

[Lock&Light]

How many Jews died because of British cowardice? 6 million!

While I fully agree that not enough was done before or during the War to save Jews, it was not British cowardice that killed six million. It was Nazi barbarity.

 

[moono]

You couldn't invent a more self-serving and unappreciative bunch of thieves and criminals if you tried.

You're another living proof of that , Astronaut. Now the task is to convince the mainstream Brits of exactly what Zionism is and does. Thank you for your opinion of them.

 

[tangentlama]

Did the Brits offer a solution to the "Jewish problem" or did they try to block immigration to Palestine?

Fact is, the Brits were too scared to take on Germany until they had no choice. Churchill was warning about Hitler for years before WWII, the Brits did nothing to stop Nazi persecution of Jews, even after the war started.

How many Jews died because of British cowardice? 6 million!






Coming from you, this is a compliment.

You're way off base. You're certainly not a Brit.
And what was America's role, as a major Nazi funder and investor, as a major instigator of restrictions of Jewish immigration to USA and tried to influence similar approach in UK through their business-politics links?

 

[nino_savatte]

Did the Brits offer a solution to the "Jewish problem" or did they try to block immigration to Palestine?

Fact is, the Brits were too scared to take on Germany until they had no choice. Churchill was warning about Hitler for years before WWII, the Brits did nothing to stop Nazi persecution of Jews, even after the war started.

How many Jews died because of British cowardice? 6 million!






Coming from you, this is a compliment.

Disingenuous and dishonest. This is a narrativisation. Why have you ignored the rampant Judaeophobia that existed in the US? Have you deliberately forgotten all of this for the sake of narrative? Do you think Julius and Ethel Rosenburg were fairly tried? Do you think they should have been executed?

What about Emma Goldman, was it right that she was expelled from the US?

Exactly how many Jews were expelled from Britain in the same period? None and none were tried for treason and executed simply because they were Jewish.

 

[astronaut]

You're another living proof of that , Astronaut. Now the task is to convince the mainstream Brits of exactly what Zionism is and does. Thank you for your opinion of them.

I don't think I have ever defended Zionism.

I have always been critical of your approach to Zionism, rather than defensive of Zionism itself.

I feel that you are just as bad as Zionist extremists - made from the same ingredients, cut from the same clothe.

 

[astronaut]

And what was America's role, as a major Nazi funder and investor, as a major instigator of restrictions of Jewish immigration to USA and tried to influence similar approach in UK through their business-politics links?

Did I say the Americans were better than the Brits?

 

[astronaut]

Why have you ignored the rampant Judaeophobia that existed in the US? Have you deliberately forgotten all of this for the sake of narrative? Do you think Julius and Ethel Rosenburg were fairly tried? Do you think they should have been executed?

What about Emma Goldman, was it right that she was expelled from the US?

Exactly how many Jews were expelled from Britain in the same period? None and none were tried for treason and executed simply because they were Jewish.

Have I said the Americans were better than the Brits? No, I didn't.

 

[nino_savatte]

Have I said the Americans were better than the Brits? No, I didn't.

You didn't have to, it was patently obvious what you were alluding to. You even had the temerity to suggest that 6 million dead in the Nazi deat hcamps was the result of "British cowardice"...which is a lie. The US refused entry to thousands and thousands of Jews. But because you're a Yank and because you prefer narrative to real history, you will continue to make things up because they sound good in your head.

 

[nino_savatte]

Are you going to tell me that you never said this, astronaut?

How many Jews died because of British cowardice? 6 million!

 

[astronaut]

Are you going to tell me that you never said this, astronaut?

Why should I deny I said it?

If I was posting on a US board, then I might have asked the same thing about Americans.

 

[astronaut]

You didn't have to, it was patently obvious what you were alluding to.

No, it didn't cross my mind to suggest the Americans were better than the Brits.

It is your perception that is at fault, not my intent.

 

[nino_savatte]

Why should I deny I said it?

If I was posting on a US board, then I might have asked the same thing about Americans.

Bullshit.

 

[nino_savatte]

No, it didn't cross my mind to suggest the Americans were better than the Brits.

It is your perception that is at fault, not my intent.

Nice try, weasel. You'll do anything to save face, even if it means resorting to deflections like this. Pathetic.

 

[nino_savatte]

You want to deal with the points, astronaut?

 

[astronaut]

You want to deal with the points, astronaut?

I didn't notice you making any points.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I didn't notice you making any points.

politcally bind as well as poltically stupid then...

 

[nino_savatte]

I didn't notice you making any points.

Ah, playing the thicko again, I see. When someone says that to me by way of reply, I suspect that they are hiding something. What are you hiding/running away from, astronut?

 

[nino_savatte]

You want to explain this outrageous and unsubstantiated claim, astronaut?

How many Jews died because of British cowardice? 6 million!

I put it to you that the Judaeophobia was worse in the US, than here during the period from 1870 to 1946. In the US, Judeaophobia was a companion of xenophobia, racism and the Jim Crow laws that went with it. It follows in the tradition of the "Knownothings" of the mid-19th century. I gave you a short list of prominent Jewish people who were victims of state persecution in the US but you said nothing. Why is that? Is it because, like all good US Zionists, you don't like listening to the truth unless it has been 'doctored' first...is that it?

 

[tangentlama]

i'd go with that time-span, for US Judeophobia.

Are you sure he's an US Zionist?

 

[astronaut]

You want to explain this outrageous and unsubstantiated claim, astronaut?


I put it to you that the Judaeophobia was worse in the US, than here during the period from 1870 to 1946. In the US, Judeaophobia was a companion of xenophobia, racism and the Jim Crow laws that went with it. It follows in the tradition of the "Knownothings" of the mid-19th century. I gave you a short list of prominent Jewish people who were victims of state persecution in the US but you said nothing. Why is that? Is it because, like all good US Zionists, you don't like listening to the truth unless it has been 'doctored' first...is that it?

I think I already responded to this so-called "point", twice in fact.

 

[nino_savatte]

i'd go with that time-span, for US Judeophobia.

Are you sure he's an US Zionist?

I'm certain: it's his use of certain words that led me to that conclusion.