Did Palestine really exist?

[moono]

Top act!

 

[astronaut]

Judaeophobia "activated" the emergence of the handful of different ideological strands known as "Zionism". Zionism pre-existed both Herzl (who in fact didn't orignate Zionism but merely drew the strands together into something akin to a philosophy) and the coininng of the term "anti-Semitic".
So it isn't accurate to claim that "anti-Semitism" created Zionism and Zionists. They pre-existed it.
It would however be accurate (at least in terms of this thread) to claim that Judaeophobia created "Zionisms".

Political Zionism emerged in the late-1870s, around the same time as the term "anti-Semitism" was created.

This is mere coincidence -- around this time there was an increase in anti-Semitism in Russia, and there was new scientific study in Germany of race -- apart from both being related to traditional Judenhass, they are coincidental.

All this is very well and good, but what advantage would it give the Zionists to use the term "anti-Semitism" rather than "Judeophobia" or "Judenhass"?

We know that the term was invented by an anti-Semite. You haven't explained why Zionists preferred this "scientific" term to Judenhass.

 

[nino_savatte]

Political Zionism emerged in the late-1870s, around the same time as the term "anti-Semitism" was created.

This is mere coincidence -- around this time there was an increase in anti-Semitism in Russia, and there was new scientific study in Germany of race -- apart from both being related to traditional Judenhass, they are coincidental.

All this is very well and good, but what advantage would it give the Zionists to use the term "anti-Semitism" rather than "Judeophobia" or "Judenhass"?

We know that the term was invented by an anti-Semite. You haven't explained why Zionists preferred this "scientific" term to Judenhass.

Still, Zionism was not universally popular among Europe's Jews because of two things: they felt they were already citizens of whatever land they lived in and were completely assimilated; secondly, it was seen as playing into the hands of the racists. It has to be remembered that even Hitler was a Zionist of sorts. He wanted to expel all Jews from Germany (and Europe) but settled for industrialised mass murder instead.

 

[astronaut]

You have trouble understanding what is meant by "colonisation" in the socio-cultural sense. The word, "semite" was ideologically colonised by Zionists; and Zionism, incidentally, was not universally popular among European Jews in the period before WWII.

Zionist proposed a solution to anti-Semitism -- that is why Zionism was formulated.

It's not a matter of Zionism colonizing the concept of Semite, in order to exclude other Semites.

Just a thought, since the term anti-Semite was first used in relation to Jews by anti-Semites, perhaps the Zionists reclaimed the term, much like "nigger" was reclaimed by blacks.

You are trying to imply that Zionism was racist against Arabs at this time, which they clearly were not -- they were interested in escaping from Europe, from anti-Semitism.

The fact that Zionism was not popular before WWII just goes to show have misguided many Jews were, since a great many of them ended up dead.

 

[astronaut]

It has to be remembered that even Hitler was a Zionist of sorts.

That is an utterly obscene suggestion, and you should be ashamed of yourself for it.

The idea that Nazi/Christian Zionism is somehow equable to Jewish Zionism is extremely misguided, wrong, bad, ...

 

[nino_savatte]

Zionist proposed a solution to anti-Semitism -- that is why Zionism was formulated.

It's not a matter of Zionism colonizing the concept of Semite, in order to exclude other Semites.

Just a thought, since the term anti-Semite was first used in relation to Jews by anti-Semites, perhaps the Zionists reclaimed the term, much like "nigger" was reclaimed by blacks.

You are trying to imply that Zionism was racist against Arabs at this time, which they clearly were not -- they were interested in escaping from Europe, from anti-Semitism.

The fact that Zionism was not popular before WWII just goes to show have misguided many Jews were, since a great many of them ended up dead.

You're so wrong on so many counts. You simply cannot accept the fact that Zionism only became popular in the post WWII period. Even after the Dreyfus case, French Jews didn't feel the need to relocate because they had been persecuted.

Your 'analogy' of "anti-semitism" and the word "nigger" is not analogous at all and smacks of lazy thinking.

You are also putting words into my mouth, as this paragraph demonstrates.

You are trying to imply that Zionism was racist against Arabs at this time, which they clearly were not -- they were interested in escaping from Europe, from anti-Semitism.

Where did I impy this? Or have you now taken to making things up to suit your ideological position?

I don't think the Jews who rejected Zionism were misguided at all, but I suspect you're one of those folk who like chucking the term "self-hating" Jew at anyone who doesn't accept Zionism, or the variety of Zionism as espoused by the Israeli state.

Tell me, does this apply to the Bene or Beta Israel as well?

 

[rachamim18]

Garfield: Funnt, I never heard ANY Zionist EVER say that Jews were the only victims. I have also never seen it poertrayed that way in either Israeli text books or museums.

I was aware the blacks were forcibly steralised. However, I am unaware [still] that they were targeted for extermination...nor that any were killed deliberately.

Jonti: I am actually in America now. I have spent most of this year and last out of the country but overall do spend quite a bit of time here. I have however, never heard that word. Apparently Wikipedia says it is a popculture reference. Great. I learned something new. What wpuld you mean by
busted?"

Aaahhh...I see in your next post. Yes. Well, you may not know this as most of the time you have belonges here, I did not post. Other posters, adide from the mentally ill one here and there, will assure you that I have provided all pertinent details. My name is actually Rachamim Ra'anan Ben Ami. I live at 400 Brook Avenue Bronx, Ny 10454. I am from Bat Yam, Israel but will desist in offering that adress as it is the home of my children and their mother. I will offer though that I am Nachlawi, the 50th, Command Sgt. and have 23 years under my belt. I was born a Bratslav Chassid and attended Yeshiva Rebbe Teitz here in New Jersey, before moving as a youngster to Israel where I attended [until age 16] Yeshiva Am Achad, affiliated with the Kook Yeshivot. My Haftorah parshah was "Achrae Mot." Here in America, I am a union excavator in Local # 731 NYC, Excavatorers and Concrete Laborers. I am currently working on the WTC rebuilding effort, doing the footings on Tower #1, in the PATH tunnel that runs under the pit. Middle aged? well, a few months and you will have hit that one on the nose. I guess one thing right is better than none.

What about you? Jonti is your real name? What's your adress? Where did you go to school? Where do you work? See, people like you come a dime a dozen. From the safety of your computer desk, you feel tough enough to piss razors. In reality, hiding behind cutesy screen names and disparaging anyone that threatens your apparently very narrow worldview your as strong as a cotton swab. I would advise you, if you do have questions about me, and ask in a civil manner, I will be glad to answer you, adult to adult. Otherwise, save us both the time and effort and go play with like minded trolls...

Nino: Yes Nino, I am sure we are all aware that you have conspiracy theories about me. You have said I am actually a Jew hating Nazi several times. Yada, yada, yada. Now, can we get back to the subject? Thanks in advance.

 

[astronaut]

You're so wrong on so many counts. You simply cannot accept the fact that Zionism only became popular in the post WWII period. Even after the Dreyfus case, French Jews didn't feel the need to relocate because they had been persecuted.

Pre-1948, where did they have to emigrate to that was better?

There was nowhere that provided a better option than the status quo

It was either:

1) Stay in France and be persecuted

2) Go somewhere else and get persecuted

3) Go to Palestine and live a highly uncertain existence

Since the vast majority of normal people are not motivated by ideology, and it is better to stay in the bad situation they understand than go to a bad situation they don't understand, they decided the status quo was preferable.

Or, are you again questioning the severity of anti-Semitism?

Your 'analogy' of "anti-semitism" and the word "nigger" is not analogous at all and smacks of lazy thinking.

My analogy was between "semite" and "nigger", not "anti-Semite".

Where did I impy this?

When you said that Zionists colonized "anti-Semitism," thus, in effect, according to you, denying the anti-Semitism against Arabs.

Or have you now taken to making things up to suit your ideological position?

My ideology is to deny extremists a platform -- this whole "anti-Semitism applies to Arabs, therefore Zionism is anti-Semitism" reeks of an extremist agenda, one that will alienate Jews/Israelis rather than help them see the benefits of peace.

I don't think the Jews who rejected Zionism were misguided at all,

Firstly, no, it's not a matter of being a self-hating Jew, it's a matter of viewing the status quo as preferable in light of pervasive persecution and uncertainty in Palestine.

Secondly, how many of those Jews who rejected Zionism ended up in concentration camps? Quite a few actually. If they had accepted Zionism, and fled to Palestine, quite a few of them might have survived. That is a fact.

but I suspect you're one of those folk who like chucking the term "self-hating" Jew at anyone who doesn't accept Zionism, or the variety of Zionism as espoused by the Israeli state.

I've said all along that I am opposed to extremism, and believe in respectful compromise in order to create peace. I believe that this discourse of "Zionist anti-Semitism" negates that ideology.

Tell me, does this apply to the Bene or Beta Israel as well?

Are you saying the Bene Israel weren't suffering from persecution by Christians? Of course they were.

 

[nino_savatte]

Pre-1948, where did they have to emigrate to that was better?

There was nowhere that provided a better option than the status quo

It was either:

1) Stay in France and be persecuted

2) Go somewhere else and get persecuted

3) Go to Palestine and live a highly uncertain existence

Since the vast majority of normal people are not motivated by ideology, and it is better to stay in the bad situation they understand than go to a bad situation they don't understand, they decided the status quo was preferable.

Or, are you again questioning the severity of anti-Semitism?






My analogy was between "semite" and "nigger", not "anti-Semite".





When you said that Zionists colonized "anti-Semitism," thus, in effect, according to you, denying the anti-Semitism against Arabs.





My ideology is to deny extremists a platform -- this whole "anti-Semitism applies to Arabs, therefore Zionism is anti-Semitism" reeks of an extremist agenda, one that will alienate Jews/Israelis rather than help them see the benefits of peace.





Firstly, no, it's not a matter of being a self-hating Jew, it's a matter of viewing the status quo as preferable in light of pervasive persecution and uncertainty in Palestine.

Secondly, how many of those Jews who rejected Zionism ended up in concentration camps? Quite a few actually. If they had accepted Zionism, and fled to Palestine, quite a few of them might have survived. That is a fact.





I've said all along that I am opposed to extremism, and believe in respectful compromise in order to create peace. I believe that this discourse of "Zionist anti-Semitism" negates that ideology.






Are you saying the Bene Israel weren't suffering from persecution by Christians? Of course they were.

You narrativise once again and you make up the things that you want to read. French Jews have always felt assimilated despite the persecution they faced. To accept Zionism would have been to play into the hands of the oppressor...which is something that you can't quite wrap your wee heid around.

The Bene and Beta Israel have never been persecuted? Are you out of your mind?

This is cute. More dishonest posting.

My analogy was between "semite" and "nigger", not "anti-Semite".

Really? How is the word "Semite" as offensive as the word "nigger"? The two are not analogous.


This is cheap and only to be expected of you. It is also very, very dishonest.

Or, are you again questioning the severity of anti-Semitism?

Here you attempt a bit of narrative

Secondly, how many of those Jews who rejected Zionism ended up in concentration camps? Quite a few actually. If they had accepted Zionism, and fled to Palestine, quite a few of them might have survived. That is a fact.

Are you trying to say that those who rejected Zionism deserved what they got? Or is it the case that you are, again, being less than honest?
If you think that by twisting my words around, you will 'win' this argument, you are mistaken. You will only end up looking like a popaul.

 

[moono]

My name is actually Rachamim Ra'anan Ben Ami. I live at 400 Brook Avenue Bronx, Ny 10454.

Iman al-Hams says hello.

 

[rachamim18]

CyberRose: No, my point in saying [correctly] that there was never a ntion called "Palestine" is not to dny them statehood and self determination but to deny them the ability to negate Israel's "Right to Exist" based on revisionism. To label Zionists as colonialists and tools of Western imperialism is uetterly nonsenseical. Of Jew and "Palestinian," only the Jew has historical precedence there. Still, the Jew, as Zionist, agreed to share the land.


Astronaut: What do you mean that a small amount of Jews seek salvation via Zionism?

Nino: Assyrians are NOT Semitic.

Partially right on european Jews not offering wholesale support of Zionism for its first 75 years or so because of assimilation [as you stated], and feeling that it would reinforce anti-Jewish stereotypes of disloyalty, but also of course because [as it still does] it violates [to some] certain tenants of Messianic theology. Agudat Yisroel, the charedi umbrella orginisation did not come around until after Israel finally raised its flag. Had it not [and its altering its outlook is a story in of itself] most religious Jews today would abhor Israel.


Zionism as a political movement was VERY popular in Galitzia [Galicia to Westerners] and other quarters as far back as the 1890s. It was in Western Europe where the attitudes were radically altered by the events of the Holocaust.

What "Beta Israel?" I do know that some Jews from Ethiopia call their community by that name. Are you saying that thety are anti-Zionist?

Astronaut: The political ideology coalesced under Moses Hess in 1862.

Correct that no part of Zionism espouses hatred of anyone, least of all brother Semites.

 

[astronaut]

You narrativise once again and you make up the things that you want to read. French Jews have always felt assimilated despite the persecution they faced. To accept Zionism would have been to play into the hands of the oppressor...which is something that you can't quite wrap your wee heid around.

I think you're making a really big mistake here.

It is NOT that French Jews saw Zionism as equivalent to "the hands of the oppressor."

1. They were not ideologically motivated, like the vast majority of people.

2. They preferred the certain status quo to uncertain change.

You are applying your own perception to those who you mistakenly believe shared your perception.

(In fact, there are hundreds of thousands of French Jews in Israel today.)

The Bene and Beta Israel have never been persecuted? Are you out of your mind?

Is that what I said? Please re-read.

If you think that by twisting my words around, you will 'win' this argument, you are mistaken. You will only end up looking like a popaul.

It's hard to otherwise understand the point you're trying to make.

 

[nino_savatte]

I think you're making a really big mistake here.

It is NOT that French Jews saw Zionism as equivalent to "the hands of the oppressor."

1. They were not ideologically motivated, like the vast majority of people.

2. They preferred the certain status quo to uncertain change.

You are applying your own perception to those who you mistakenly believe shared your perception.

(In fact, there are hundreds of thousands of French Jews in Israel today.)






Is that what I said? Please re-read.







It's hard to otherwise understand the point you're trying to make.

You're a dishonest fucker. All you can do is twist my words around as this shows.

Is that what I said? Please re-read.

How about you reread my posts? Or is that too much trouble? Of course it is.

You like to think of yourself as better than R18 but you're just the same: you're both dishonest and neithert of you is capable of understanding anything thay doesn't fit into your narrow view of the world and its peoples.

 

[rachamim18]

Yeah, you kinow us Shysters....That reminds me...Astronaut, what time should I pick you up for the next Protocols meeting?

 

[astronaut]

You're a dishonest fucker. All you can do is twist my words around as this shows..

Stop talking crap.

If you don't like my response, perhaps you're not writing clearly enough to be understood correctly.

You like to think of yourself as better than R18 but you're just the same: you're both dishonest and neithert of you is capable of understanding anything thay doesn't fit into your narrow view of the world and its peoples.

You've gotten that well wrong.

It is YOU and R18 who share an extremely narrow world view -- one of extremism.

Perhaps your ideologies are diamterically opposed, but you're still both made from the same ingredients.

 

[astronaut]

Yeah, you kinow us Shysters....That reminds me...Astronaut, what time should I pick you up for the next Protocols meeting?

I go to a different Protocols meeting to you.

 

[nino_savatte]

Stop talking crap.

If you don't like my response, perhaps you're not writing clearly enough to be understood correctly.






You've gotten that well wrong.

It is YOU and R18 who share an extremely narrow world view -- one of extremism.

Perhaps your ideologies are diamterically opposed, but you're still both made from the same ingredients.

Au contraire, it is you who is talking shite.

You're not even original: you even compare me to R18 when it is you who shares the same ethno-centric philosophy. Even then, you had to steal the idea from me. Pathetic.

I'm writing clearly, it is you who would rather make up what he reads. You don't even have the honesty to deal with people's posts without resorting to fantasy...as you have proved over the course of several posts.

 

[nino_savatte]

Well? Are you going to keep sliding around, astronaut or do I have to take the gloves off?

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: Assyrians are NOT Semitic.

That's where you're wrong, pal...and not for the first time either.

Oh, this cracks me up.

Zionism as a political movement was VERY popular in Galitzia [Galicia to Westerners] and other quarters as far back as the 1890s. It was in Western Europe where the attitudes were radically altered by the events of the Holocaust.

What "Beta Israel?" I do know that some Jews from Ethiopia call their community by that name. Are you saying that thety are anti-Zionist?

You can only point to one place where Zionism was popular. In Germany, France and elsewhere it was not popular and any attempt to tell me otherwise will only result in howls of [derisive] laughter.

Like astronaut, you only read the things that you want to see. Where did I say the Beta Israel were "anti-Zionist", I didn't and you made that up because you're far too lazy to think any other way. Were the Beta Israel living in Europe where the idea of Zionism was popular? No, they weren't.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: Galitzia was a region that encompasses what are now maybe 6 nations. The bulk of Ashkenazi Jewry lived there.


Astronaut: How is being a committed Zionist ethnocentric? As I take it, and mayber I do not really grasp the word, it means a form of supremacy. I am certainly not a supremacist. In fact, my wife is a convert. If were anything like a supremacist I would have never cosnidered marrying her.

The Beta of course knew nothing about the ideology of POLITICAL Zionism but like all tradtional Jews, including the Chassidim who protest against the Zionist State, they are Zionist. Our entire culture revolves around our homeland. At Pesach we leave a cup of wine for the prophet Eliyahu who will lead us to Jerusalem. Our weddings [although Beta weddings USED to be performed a bit differently] we express this longing. Our secular poetry, our religious prayers, all point towards Israel.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: Galitzia was a region that encompasses what are now maybe 6 nations. The bulk of Ashkenazi Jewry lived there.

.

I'm not a fellow Yank, so you can spare me the geography lesson. Although, I sincerely hope you are not confusing the Spanish province of Galicia for the place in Poland.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Political Zionism emerged in the late-1870s, around the same time as the term "anti-Semitism" was created.

This is mere coincidence -- around this time there was an increase in anti-Semitism in Russia, and there was new scientific study in Germany of race -- apart from both being related to traditional Judenhass, they are coincidental.

"Political Zionism" was an underground reality through most of the 19th century. What Herzl did was codify sentiment and samizdat into a digestible politics at a time when (due to structural, economic and religious factors which you can dig out of any European history text that covers the 19th and early 20th century) Judaeophobia was experiencing a resurgence akin to that of Luther's era.
This resurgence in Judaeophobia did indeed coincide with "the new scientific study", but you should bear in mind that such study (and it's "racist" implications) took place throughout Europe, and indeed in the US and Australia too. The eugenics movement manifested in all these places although it is fair to say that given Germany's historic Judaeophobia it manifested most strongly in that form, as it manifested most strongly in the UK against the Irish.
Where you see simple coincidence I see a cascade of events.

All this is very well and good, but what advantage would it give the Zionists to use the term "anti-Semitism" rather than "Judeophobia" or "Judenhass"?

It's about current usage and the dominant discourse. If it ever became more politically and ideologically expedient to use a different term that would happen in an instant.

We know that the term was invented by an anti-Semite. You haven't explained why Zionists preferred this "scientific" term to Judenhass.

Simple perceived linguistics.
Break "anti-Semite" down and what does it reduce to? A person who is "against Semites". "Against is a clear definition, but it isn't forceful in the way that "Judenhass" (hatred of Jews) or "Judaeophobia" (fear of Jews) are. They're too naked, too emotive, and therefore not seen as appropriate to "educated" debate.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The fact that Zionism was not popular before WWII just goes to show have misguided many Jews were, since a great many of them ended up dead.

What a load of fetid reductive bullshit.

Some died because they believed that the worst couldn't happen and were wrong, Some died because they'd stood and fought over and over again for the right to farm their land and practice their religion, some died because they were sold out by Quislings, some even died because they trusted people (the Nazis, the British, The US) that they shouldn't have, but to make a sweeping generalisation that they were misguided for not turning to Zionism is arrant insulting nonsense.

 

[moono]

Semite dementia;

accumulative loss of self-awareness resulting in isolation and inevitable death.

 

[astronaut]

This resurgence in Judaeophobia did indeed coincide with "the new scientific study", but you should bear in mind that such study (and it's "racist" implications) took place throughout Europe, and indeed in the US and Australia too. The eugenics movement manifested in all these places although it is fair to say that given Germany's historic Judaeophobia it manifested most strongly in that form, as it manifested most strongly in the UK against the Irish.

The resurgence of Eastern European anti-Semitism had very little to do with eugenics, and everything to do with instability of the Russian Empire, and the use of a traditional scapegoat by the Tsar to try to fend off revolution.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The resurgence of Eastern European anti-Semitism had very little to do with eugenics...

I haven't said it did, something you'd have noticed if you'd read my post properly.
What I said was that the resurgence coincided with the rise of eugenics.

Pull your finger out, eh?

...and everything to do with instability of the Russian Empire, and the use of a traditional scapegoat by the Tsar to try to fend off revolution.

Yes, that comes under the "structural, economic and religious factors" I mentioned.

 

[astronaut]

I haven't said it did, something you'd have noticed if you'd read my post properly.
What I said was that the resurgence coincided with the rise of eugenics.

So you didn't write very clearly:

Where you see simple coincidence I see a cascade of events.

 

[nino_savatte]

What a load of fetid reductive bullshit.

Some died because they believed that the worst couldn't happen and were wrong, Some died because they'd stood and fought over and over again for the right to farm their land and practice their religion, some died because they were sold out by Quislings, some even died because they trusted people (the Nazis, the British, The US) that they shouldn't have, but to make a sweeping generalisation that they were misguided for not turning to Zionism is arrant insulting nonsense.

I'm glad you made that point VP. He's obviously overlooked the heroism of these people for the sake of convenience/narrative.

 

[astronaut]

but to make a sweeping generalisation that they were misguided for not turning to Zionism is arrant insulting nonsense.

That don't erase the fact that if they had listened to the Zionists, and had tried to escape to Palestine, they might have at least had a chance to survive -- no-one else was taking them, no-one else came up with a better solution.

 

[astronaut]

I'm glad you made that point VP. He's obviously overlooked the heroism of these people for the sake of convenience/narrative.

Heroism? Since when is burying your head in the sand heroism? And it is not a matter of them disliking Zionism, and refusing to accept its "oppression." It's a matter of them thinking the bad times would quickly pass, despite all the evidence to the contrary, or thinking that uncertainty at home was better than uncertainty in Palestine.