Did Palestine really exist?

[Gmart]

I have been somewhat put off writing on this board by the insistence of some here that Palestine did not exist historically before the Israelis came in the great numbers as they did after the second world war.

I thought this position was and is gravely misleading, and is also trying to get around the basic point of the whole issue, that the Israelis have invaded a land where, though they had some numbers, the existing population were certainly in the majority.

This progressive invasion is even now being followed through with the encroachment on yet more land by the wall being built.

Whilst thinking about this I was reading the letters page for the Independent in the UK here

There, many different people had been commenting on the same issue, and so i thought i would put forward some highlights:

"They confirm that about a million Palestinian Arabs occupied what is now Israel before 1948, and that only 150,000 remained after the creation of Israel. The other 800,000 did not leave their homeland as the result of a polite request."

Again the same line is put forward that these Arabs were not a sovereign state, (presumably as recognised by the International Community, whose resolutions were and are so easy to ignore), and thus of course they can be invaded.

There follows a letter about a reader's grandfather who went to Palestine on holiday in 1938.

The Israelis seem to expect their re-writing of history to work, indeed they are desparate for it to work, otherwise their attempt at casting themselves as heroes suddenly turns them into the oppressors.

Personally i wish they would get on with it and just accept this role as oppressor, which they surely are. There seems to be a blind spot as to the inherent racism of treating the Arabs and others as a lesser race who are just inconvenient in their existence and their religion. There also seems to be a basic belief that they are the chosen people and so are better than everyone (despite the evident parallel with WW2) simply missing the point of all religion. It is faith, and faith is personal and thus cannot be proved to be true. Thus Religion needs to be kept out of politics and thus rights and opportunity have to be for all, with Religion taking an advisory role at most.

Thus everyone needs to be equal, with equal opportunity. One would think that the USA would encourage this but despite the need to include the Palestinians, and further to enrich them and educate them as equals with the Israelis, the US seems to allow the creation of an unrealistic Jewish state, thus polorising the Arab world and bolstering the lack of compromise on the Israelis side.

If compromise is not embraced, and the original invasion of the Jews suggests that it is THEY who should do so, the whole area will be wiped off the map by some madman, and THEN it will be too late, and millions more will die, AGAIN!!

 

[rachamim18]

Glad you asked...

GMarthews: Yes, a million Arabs [more or less, actually closer to 1.3 million but who's piddling?] DID live in the entire Mandate but what you fail to realise is that of that number, 200,00 were in Trans-Jordan, and up to 400,000 more were illegal aliens who had migrated there within the preceeding 75 years.

Of the ones remaining, 800,000 odd , 180 chose to stay and become Israelis BY CHOICE. Roughly 625,000 DID become refugees but of that number, 200,000 [conservative estimates] left their homes by their own volition. As I have stated in this forum before, the proof comes from their own mouths!

In the beginning of 1947 thousands of thousands of the wealthier Arabs left for better, more secure surroundings. These constituted the Ayan Class under the Turks and as such had retained much of their old influence under the British.

On November 27th, 1947, the UN ratified Resolution #181 which offered both Jew and Arab their own state once again. Once again Jews accepted and thus gained an independant state. Once again Arabs refused and created their current situation.


With Independance still officially put off until the following May, the Arab Higher Committee issued a communique on February 6th, 1948 that stated any attempt by the Zioinists to establish a state would be viewed [by Arabs] as bold aggression and would be resisted by force.

In fact, the day of the ratification, Arabs had stormed a Jewish bus in Lydda. 2 days after this, the Arab Higher Committee called for, and got a General Strike. Within the first week after the Resolution, Arabs had begun leaving their homes spurned on by Arab propaganda, and in many cases direct orders of mukhtars and even militia chiefs.

The migration began in Haifa and in Jaffa. In Haifa, Sir John Glubb-Pasha took payment from the British to arrange an orderly evacuation of his city's more than 200,000 Arab residents. In a small flotilla they sailed up the coast to camps outside Beirut. Most were told by Pasha's men that they would be able to return in less than a week after the Zionists had been soundly defeated.

The first small scale battles began on December 8th, 1947 when Arab bands managed to capture isolated Jewish towns and neighbourhoods. In the weeks immediately after this iniation of the Arab campaign, the Arabs captured an oil refinery in Hafia, and even made inroads on Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter and parts of Tel Aviv. They also controlled the roads in and out of Jerusalem shortly after Western New Year.

January saw the militias now joined by Trans-jordans Arab Legion take hold of and ultimately destroy the Etzion Bloc, a series of Jewish communities that stretched from Jerusalem to Hebron. By all accounts Arabs were besting the fledgling Zionist forces whom they outnumbered [counting only "Palestinians"] by more than 2 to 1.

Through all this Arabs leaving their homes had every reason to belive the promises of returning home shortly to share in the spoils ofthe Zionist usurpers. Aside from Jordan, local Arabs were now joined by the Jaysh al Inqadh which was a pan-Arab force dominated by Syrians.

Jews were barely holding onto any ground, let alone strong enough to assert themselves to the point of "ethnic cleansing." There were certain incidents that began to show a shift in this pattern however. As the weather warmed an organised Jewish militia attacked the Arab town of Balad al Sheikh and killed 60 mostly non-combatants in retaliation for an earlier Arab bombing of a Haifia refiner and 3 Jerusalem bus bombings that had killed more than 50 Jewish non-combatants.

This type of tit for tat pattern had been iniated by Arabs but Jews were beginning to adjust all to easily. By March, Arabs controlled the roads in and out of Jerusalem throughly.It was at this point that the fighting shifted from countrside to urban settings and the strong advantage Arab forces held dissipated quickly.

By April the Zionists stopped responding to Arab attacks as their only battle plan and began a more pro-active strategy. Indicative of this change are confidential British memos appraising the Jewish forces. The December appraisal painted avery bleak picture of the proposed State of Israel: "In the long run the Zionists won't be able to cope with the Arabs." However by Feburary the tone had markedly shifted: " [The Jews ] will hold onto at least a part of their designated state."

It was in Feburary that the "Refugee Problem" reached its peak. As the tone of the battles shifted from Arab onslaught, to Arab steadfastness, to Arab retreat, the numbers of displaced Arabs and their outlook changed as well. "Palestinians" claim that upwards of 750,000 became homelss during the period of 12/47 to 5/48. The British claim it was only 600,000 while the Zionists maintain the number was less than 520,000.

By March 1948 it is safely said that only 2 to 6% of the local Arab population had become displaced. This equals 30 to 75,000 people. Some local Arab villages and towns brokered peace agreements with the Zionist forces as the first step towards life under a new status quo, others merely wnet in for neutrality barring Arab militants from ensconcing themselves with the village.

It was at this time that the HaGanah, the official militia of the Yishuv, or predecessor of the Israeli State, formulated "Paln Daled" [Plan D]. the Plan did NOT call for actual eviction of anyone OR ethinc cleansing but was purposely, or otherwise vague on certain issues. The ambivalence contained in the plan allowed some HaGanah commanders to use a wide array of force to compel people [almost always Arabs] to vacate strategic areas.

Then, as spring came it was clear that the Zionists were holding their own and even making markked headway in alot of areas.Displaced Arabs incresed at a phenomenol pace. Although Haifa and Jaffa were emptied [voluntarily] of Arabs very early on, their fall to Zionists [Yaffa in 4/22/48 and Haifa on 5/13/48] caused a mad rush for the borders by many Arab villagers. It was between April and June that saw 2 to 300,000 Arabs turning into refugees.

With the collapse of theese cities it was clear that the Arabs were broken. the bulk of their strategy relied on the assumption that Zionist would crack under heavy close quarter urban combat. Street to Street Fighting would turn the Zionists into a sea of refugess. Irnoically, it did that to the Arabs themselves.


150,000 did NOT remain in Israel. That was the minimum number that stayed in Galilee alone. Most accounts lisat at least 400,00 but in examing sataistics it is easy to see the number was alot higher.


STILL, WHAT DOES ALL THIS VVALID DISCUSSION HAVE TO DO WITH THE TITLE OF YOUR THREAD? YOU HAVE DONE NOTHING TO ADRESS WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS EVER A 'PALESTINE'."

[Edited for spelling as usual]

 

[TomUS]

Palestine, as a country/independent political entity, has never existed as far as I can tell. The area of Israel & the Palestinian territories, at least in recent history was always controlled by other countries- Turkey, Britain, Jordan, Egypt.

But, I expect & hope that there will soon be a country of Palestine.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The whole concept of a nation state is an illusion in any case.

The issue is not whether there was a state called Palestine - it's what has happened to people in an area that has been taken over by someone who didn't previously control it. The idea that seems to go around that Palestine never really existed so it's okay to do what you want with it... well, it's just irrelevant.

 

[rachamim18]

Fridge: You are missing a big slice of the pie. It is not that anyone is saying "it's ok to do what we want with it cause no nation ever existed there."

It is that history clearly shows that this land WAS the Jewish homeland. JEWS DID CONTROL IT, the only people to do so.Science and history show that todays Jews are the descendants of those Jews.

Therefore, todays Jews DO have the right to exert their nationalism on land that is theirs. They recognised the need to share said land because Arabs had migrated at the end of that historical interim.

Arabs refused to share the land, to this day their so called "leaders" want all of it.


Tom: The last organic nation to stand there, not including the European Crusader Kingdom, was the Jewish nation of Yehudah [Judea].

 

[In Bloom]

Fridge: You are missing a big slice of the pie. It is not that anyone is saying "it's ok to do what we want with it cause no nation ever existed there."

It is that history clearly shows that this land WAS the Jewish homeland. JEWS DID CONTROL IT, the only people to do so.Science and history show that todays Jews are the descendants of those Jews.

Therefore, todays Jews DO have the right to exert their nationalism on land that is theirs. They recognised the need to share said land because Arabs had migrated at the end of that historical interim.

Arabs refused to share the land, to this day their so called "leaders" want all of it.


Tom: The last organic nation to stand there, not including the European Crusader Kingdom, was the Jewish nation of Yehudah [Judea].

So can proper Celts kick all the Saxon fuckers out of Ireland and nick their houses?

That'd be fucking sweet, I bet I could find one with a pool

 

[Red Faction]

So can proper Celts kick all the Saxon fuckers out of Ireland and nick their houses?

That'd be fucking sweet, I bet I could find one with a pool

 

[TomUS]

Palestine of course did dot exist before Israel. I'm not sure when the palestinians became The Palestinians. The Israeli position is I think that it was after the 1967 war. I assume others have other ideas.

 

[snorbury]

where's the wtf option?

 

[ymu]

GMarthews: Yes, a million Arabs [more or less, actually closer to 1.3 million but who's piddling?] DID live in the entire Mandate but what you fail to realise is that of that number, 200,00 were in Trans-Jordan, and up to 400,000 more were illegal aliens who had migrated there within the preceeding 75 years.

So if the Palestinians had no claim because most of them had only been there 75 years, what claim do the Israelis have now? I know, I know - the Jews were there 2000 years ago and because G-d says so. I think He also said to wait for the Messiah to lead the people back to the Promised Land, but He didn't really mean that part, right?

Your claims here seem to be based on Joan Peters "research" in From Time Immemorial which has been rather comprehensively, and embarrassingly, debunked by Norman Finkelstein. There's a good series of essays summarising his work here. My favourite snippet was her quote about Arab migration to Palestine which turned out to be from a source which was several hundred years old.

Of the ones remaining, 800,000 odd , 180 chose to stay and become Israelis BY CHOICE. Roughly 625,000 DID become refugees but of that number, 200,000 [conservative estimates] left their homes by their own volition.

Some "chose" to become Israelis rather than leave their homes and land. When your homeland gets annexed by an invading force, that's the choice you get. Lots of refugees do leave "by their own volition" rather than waiting to be frogmarched or trucked out at gunpoint (if they're lucky). This doesn't negate their right to return now, does it? Given that the stated aim of the Zionist movement was to create a Jewish state with at least an 80% Jewish majority (which they achieved), how do you think the numbers would have worked out if most had stayed (given that most had a free choice to do so, according to you).

-------

In answer to the OP, nation-states were a pretty new phenomenon at the start of the 20th century. The World Zionist Conference decided that Palestine was to be the location of the proposed Jewish state in 1905, whilst it was still part of the Ottoman Empire (having previously considered Uganda and Argentina, IIRC). Britain took over the mandate following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and managed to promise it to both Zionists and to some Arab leaders as an independent state of their own - to the Arabs in return for support during WWI, I believe, and to the Zionists because Balfour was an anti-semite who spotted a chance to rid Europe of its Jews.

Jewish immigration to Palestine was very low until the 1930's, as the majority of orthodox Jewry considered Zionism a heresy (for reasons outlined at the top of this post). When the US, UK and what was left of Europe refused sanctuary to those fleeing Germany and the rest of occupied Europe, and later on to those trying to rebuild their lives after WWII, Palestine was pretty much the only option left for many.

Palestine was certainly recognised as a geographical entity prior to WWII. There are archived letters from a British envoy sent there in the 1700's. He refers to Palestine and to the advanced agricultural methods which allowed the population to reap magnificent harvests of luscious fruit from what appeared to be desert, and said that British agriculture would benefit greatly from studying these techniques. He was right. Overuse of water by more recent European settlers wishing to create green lawns and have swimming pools in the desert has led to irreversible salination in many important water sources, demonstrating just how cack-handed us European-types are when it comes to responsible land husbandry ...

 

[moono]

TomUS;

Palestine of course did dot exist before Israel. I'm not sure when the palestinians became The Palestinians. The Israeli position is I think that it was after the 1967 war. I assume others have other ideas.

North African Arabs, and Jews, are Semites. They are the same people , indigenous to that locality. That's genetic fact, so ignore the bible and torah peddlars.

The geographical area of 'Palestine' is mentioned in ancient texts but, more to the point, 'Palestine' is in common usage in British government paperwork over the past two centuries.

Even more to the point , it's actually full of Palestinians, right now, and they will scorch the arse off anyone that tries to steal it. Further, the United Nations, and most of the civilised world, agrees with them. If you read differently you are reading the Zionist press.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The whole concept of a nation state is an illusion in any case.
.

Explain that to the millions of people who have died as a result of the concept.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

TomUS;


North African Arabs, and Jews, are Semites. .

Do you think that if no one is looking, you can resurrect the same old tired arguments.

Yes, technically, but the concept in general usage refers to jews.

As I recall, the term came into usage in order to promote anti-jewishness.

 

[moono]

Do you think that if no one is looking, you can resurrect the same old tired arguments.

Yes, technically, but the concept in general usage refers to jews.

As I recall, the term came into usage in order to promote anti-jewishness.

It's a new argument. Genetic mapping is recent, so don't get uncharacteristically smart.

You're right up to a point. The term had been misappropriated but it's on its way back. 'Muslim anti-Semitism' is the anti-Semitism practised in America. 'Jewish anti-Semitism' is the anti-Semitism practised throughout the rest of the cosmos, or so they would have us believe.

Thus 'anti-Semitism' becomes a spur for peace for an entire region, not just one section of a region's society.
(Thank you, tl, for the idea.)

 

[belboid]

So can proper Celts kick all the Saxon fuckers out of Ireland and nick their houses?

That'd be fucking sweet, I bet I could find one with a pool

screw Ireland - we should all go and reclaim Africa! We were born there maaaaan!!

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Explain that to the millions of people who have died as a result of the concept.

I can't.

They're dead.

 

[nino_savatte]

Do you think that if no one is looking, you can resurrect the same old tired arguments.

Yes, technically, but the concept in general usage refers to jews.

As I recall, the term came into usage in order to promote anti-jewishness.

My, my, my what lies are these? You're wrong Canucklehead, very wrong and trust you not to miss an opportunity to put the boot into the Palestinians.

 

[nino_savatte]

Of course Palestine has existed for centuries andanyone who says otherwise is a particular type of revisionist.

 

[nino_savatte]

Fridge: You are missing a big slice of the pie. It is not that anyone is saying "it's ok to do what we want with it cause no nation ever existed there."

It is that history clearly shows that this land WAS the Jewish homeland. JEWS DID CONTROL IT, the only people to do so.Science and history show that todays Jews are the descendants of those Jews.

Therefore, todays Jews DO have the right to exert their nationalism on land that is theirs. They recognised the need to share said land because Arabs had migrated at the end of that historical interim.

Arabs refused to share the land, to this day their so called "leaders" want all of it.


Tom: The last organic nation to stand there, not including the European Crusader Kingdom, was the Jewish nation of Yehudah [Judea].

More revisionism? Nice of you to narrativise the history of the region. There were other people living on the land that you claim has been "continuously occupied by Jews" for centuries. You say this to the exclusion of all other peoples who lived there.

I've noticed that you never mention ther Baghdadi Jews who had lived in Mesopotamia for centuries and who were bombed out of their homes by a combination of Israeli and British intrigue...or perhaps you'd rather ignore that important juncture in history for the sake of narrative?

 

[Dougal]

I voted for the last option as it was the most stupid.

 

[rachamim18]

InBloom: If you can find a Celt practicing Celtic culture approaching anything at all proacticed by the Celts that lived during the saxxon invasion, by all means make a case. You see, todays Jews practice an almost identical culture to thier forbears of the Roman era.


Tom: "Palestinian" identity began to coalesce during the 1834 Rebellion against Ali-Pasha of Egypt who in turn had rebelled against the Ottomans and ruled large slice of land for about 11 years [1830 to 1841]. It was at that point that Arabs living in what soon become the Mandate began to think of themselves as a people apart from those living in Egypt and northern Syria.

At the turn of the 19th/20th Centuries [CE/AD] these Arabs began to adopt revolutionary ideas. Some intellectuals referred to these Arabs as Canaanites, although most opted for Syrians, and then Southern
Syrians as the Mandate was created following WWI.

Faisel, later to be King Faisel, was stirring up Arab nationalism out of Damascus. Most Mandate Arabs looked towards Faisel as their savior and quickly adopted the ideology of a "Greater Syria," in which the Mandate would be known as "Southern Syria" in a federated state with what would become Syria and Iraq [as well as Trans-Jordan].

After the French crushed Faisel's movement in the summer of 1920 and it was at this point that some local Arabs began looking for a new label for their growing nationalist sentiment.

Up until this time Arabs by and large rejected the label "Palestinian" because the world labeled anyone, including Jews, as such. the Arabs much preferred soemthing unique and assertive to distinguish themselves from the myriad of peoples inhabiting the region.

It was not until 1947 and the concrete emergence of the Zionist entity that Mandate Arabs felt secure enough to adopt the term "Palestinian" en masse. after 1948 the world began to catch on.

As to the Israeli position, it was ambivalence which turned into grudging acceptance. After a words is attached to something enough times, it begins to seem like it had always been there. The vast, vast majority of the world refers to these Arabs as "Palestinians," hence they are "Palestinians."

 

[nino_savatte]

Hmmm and all of this means what, precisely?

So what would you prefer, that we call it "The Levant" or "Outremer"?

 

[rachamim18]

YMU: Actually, the Zionist position has always been, at least since 1919 anyweay, that BOTH groups arew entitled to land. Sadly it was Arabs who never adopted this sentiment.

I do not mean to insult your rel;igious beliefs [if they are in fact your beliefs] but Zionism is a secular creed, not religious. It does not rely on religion for any part of its ideology. It is concerned with the Jews as a PEOPLE.

Joan Peters? Nope. I base my views on a wide range of sources from every part of the spectrum. Finkelstein himself has ben debunked in Israel for having a political agenda although that does not negate ALL of his work. some of it was excellent. However, neither he nor anyone else has the last word on the issue since one may dig in virtually any part of the land and find Jewish artifacts as old as 3900 years. Biblical Archaeology has precious little to do with anything I am talking about. Israel is not built atop the premise of the Solomonic Gates.


On Arab migration to what would become the Mandate I suggest you look at Antonius, Migdal, Kimmerling, Patai, Zurayk, and a ton of others. All you have to do is look at the so called "leadership" to see it in action. Where was Arafat and his clan from? Said? Husseini? On and on and on. Even during the Zionist build up Arabs kept migrating in search of economic advantages. In fact, most accounts attribute between 2 and 300,000 illegal Arab migrants to the so called "West Bank" and Gaza during the Oslo Era. This has been the case not only in the Mandate but throughout the region.

"Some chose to become Israeli rather than leave their home and land." Yes, of course. Others also chose to join the IDF. Others chose to enter Israeli civic life. Your idea is narrow.

Now, as far as "frog marched out at gunpoint," many Arab settlements were left unmolested so your idea is nothing but weak propaganda. Unless Israelis had a uniform policy of such treatment, and they did not, your comment lacks a point. Of Arabs FORCILY removed from Israel [i.e. ethnically cleansed], only Ashkelon and 13 tiny villages were effected. Did other Arabs leave because of fear that they might be the recipients of similar treatment? Sure, but not many. Most, as I outlined, left willingly at the request of theuir "leadership." I know the truth is not as sexy, never the less, itis the truth.

What do I think of the numbers had more Arabs stayed? Well, if you are truly aware of what the 47 Partition represented, you would know that it is a non-issue. It actually would have only left an additional 7% margin on the demographic balance. Not crucial either way. Arabs WERE cleansed because they represented a fifth column on crucial security areas, mostly borders.

 

[rachamim18]

YMU:Yuo are correct in your belief that Britain seeked to reward certain Arab clans for their support during WWI. However, I have never seen anything to asuggest Balfour was anti-Jewish. Do you have anything to quaslify that?

You are wrong that Jewish immigration to the Mandate was low until the 30s, although it certainly grew by leaps and bounds during the 30s due to the instability of Europe. It began with a tricle in the early 1860s and gained momentum at the turn of the century and only began to slow down just after WWI began.

"Orthadox Jewry mostly considered Israel a heresy." Most, not all though. With Kookism it changed rapidly and then after Israel's Independance it almost totaly disappeared except for a couple of Chassidic groups.

Your purported marvelous agriculture of the 1700s is nonsense. Aside from a small cluster of agriculture on the Nablus Plain and along the coastal strip, the once verdant land was reduced to malarial swamp and arid desert. Ever read Pinkerton? He wrote of the relevant period [actually 1802]:" The peasants are in the most miserable situation..." ["Modern Geography" 1802].


"Over use of the water." Actually, Zionists have created more water than they have used. Are you familiar with Israeli desalination technology?

As for "Europeans," if only Hitler shared your outlook. Jews are a Semitic people , even if you cannot yet accept it. Semitesof course are not native to Europe.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: Arabs are indigenous to Arabia. Jews are indigenous to Judea.

Belboid: If you practice the same culture that "Lucy" did, go reclaim Africa. Meanwhile, we Jews whom practice almost the identical culture as our exiled ancestors will stick with our little piece of G-D's green earth.

Nino: Stating that Jews have continuously lived on that land since the fiorst Jews settled [conquered] there almost 4000 years ago does NOT exclude other people. The point is to establish a connection to the land, not offer a complete natural history.

Baghdadi Jews? I actually have many in my family. My father was born in Alepp o, Syria after all and my humnla is Dweck. So what? Bombed out of their homes by Jewish and British intrique? Oooohhh. So what Nino? What does this have to do with whether or not "Palestine" has ever existed?

As for what my post had to do with anything, the person I directed it to had asked about "Palestinian identity."

 

[Brainaddict]

I have noticed on several WW1 war memorials around Britain that it was considered uncontroversial to use the term Palestine at the time they were erected.

 

[moono]

Moono: Arabs are indigenous to Arabia. Jews are indigenous to Judea.

Tripe. Regional Jews and Muslims are simply Semites with different sets of beliefs, not different genes. The difference is religious, and the emphasis on difference is a weakness of religions. There is no Jewish race. Accept it.

 

[ymu]

Your purported marvelous agriculture of the 1700s is nonsense. Aside from a small cluster of agriculture on the Nablus Plain and along the coastal strip, the once verdant land was reduced to malarial swamp and arid desert. Ever read Pinkerton? He wrote of the relevant period [actually 1802]:" The peasants are in the most miserable situation..." ["Modern Geography" 1802].

Try here for a brief rundown of a slightly broader range of sources which beg to differ.

"Over use of the water." Actually, Zionists have created more water than they have used. Are you familiar with Israeli desalination technology?

Hmmm.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: What do genetic similarities [not identical] have to do with places one calls home? Arabs come from Arabia, Jews from Judea, pretty simple although you seemto be having quite a time with it. Both Jews and Arabs though acknowledge it and that is what counts, not soem European with a complex offering summary judgements.


YMU: I read it and of course it isnonsense. Pinkerton, unlike your "sources" is a non-partisan source with nothing to gain nor lose. Try offering third party sources if you want to actually prove soemthing. I could offer Israeli sources but would it sway you? Of course not, you would haughtily dismiss it as propaganda [rightly so], just as I now do to yours.

 

[astronaut]

"Muslim anti-Semitism"?! Is that when Muslims hate Jews?

"Jewish anti-Semitism"?! Is that when Jews hate Jews?

Anti-Semitism is hatred of Jews. Full stop. No argument possible. That is what it has always meant, and always will mean.

Hatred of Muslims has been given a new term: Islamophobia.

Get used to it Moono -- your extremist discourse is fucking offensive -- next you'll be denying that "Jewboy" is a racist term.