Did a Welshman discover America?
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littlebabyjesus said:With the scholarly authority of geocities to back it up.
Well yes, but it shouldn't necessarily be entirely dismissed
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Um, yes it should.Stanley Edwards said:Well yes, but it shouldn't necessarily be entirely dismissed
If it were worth considering, the author would have provided at least one reference.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
OK, pedant's hat on, but it's worth getting this clear...
At the time we are talking about - 1000-1500 CE - Europeans were not in contact with sub-Saharan Africa. The ancient Romans may have been in contact at least as far south as Timbuktu, but this connection had been lost. No European knew of the existence of Australia or indeed the Pacific Ocean. So when Europeans landed on the Americas, they were connecting the Americas with Europe and, via Europe, potentially with Asia and North Africa, but not with any other part of the world. They did not in any sense 'discover' America as there were already people there, and to use this language is dangerous, because the justification for later European colonisation of both the Americas and Australia was based partially on the myth of the 'empty land'.
At the time we are talking about - 1000-1500 CE - Europeans were not in contact with sub-Saharan Africa. The ancient Romans may have been in contact at least as far south as Timbuktu, but this connection had been lost. No European knew of the existence of Australia or indeed the Pacific Ocean. So when Europeans landed on the Americas, they were connecting the Americas with Europe and, via Europe, potentially with Asia and North Africa, but not with any other part of the world. They did not in any sense 'discover' America as there were already people there, and to use this language is dangerous, because the justification for later European colonisation of both the Americas and Australia was based partially on the myth of the 'empty land'.
littlebabyjesus said:Um, yes it should.
If it were worth considering, the author would have provided at least one reference.
Spoil sport.
Try this one instead:
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/history/toke_like_egyptian.htm
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
Belushi said:Heh, an article from Fortean Times entitled 'Toke like an Egyptian', now your just taking the piss mate
http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/ethnic/mummy.htm
A top quality book on the Madoc legend is: Madoc - The Legend of the Welsh Discovery of America by Gwyn Alf Williams which reads like an adventure story. Been ages since I read it but I think he came to the conclusion that Dr John Dee dug up the Madoc legend to legitimise Elizabeth 1's territorial claims on N. America against the French. ie a Welsh bloke discovered America therefore America belongs to Britain. Typical British imperialism for ya.
Of course that doesn't stop me believing that it's my absolute birthright to have a free apartment on the upper west side.
Of course that doesn't stop me believing that it's my absolute birthright to have a free apartment on the upper west side.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
There's no call for that attitude here, I think your job running U75 should be taken and given to a British worker, under Brown/Hain's 'British jobs for British workers' policy.
1927
Funnier than he thinks he is.
If anyone hasn't seen that programme done by that newsreader guy, forget his name...Humphries(?) about the Welsh in America, you should try and see it. very interesting. makes the point that the Welsh influence on US is actually greater thanh the Irish, but goes unrecognised.
Strangeways
New Member
anyway, returning to the discovery of america...
the 'native americans' crossed from siberia, acorss the bering straits. it wouldn't surprise me if there had continued to be contact between the nomads of siberia and their cousins over the water after that.
as for europeans being aware of the pacific before 1500, there were romans who travelled to china, a long time before marco polo. just because *most* europeans weren't aware of something didn't mean it wasn't known to *some* europeans.
and, as for contact with sub-saharan africa, i imagine there was, when one considers the activities of the famous prince henry the navigator.
the 'native americans' crossed from siberia, acorss the bering straits. it wouldn't surprise me if there had continued to be contact between the nomads of siberia and their cousins over the water after that.
as for europeans being aware of the pacific before 1500, there were romans who travelled to china, a long time before marco polo. just because *most* europeans weren't aware of something didn't mean it wasn't known to *some* europeans.
and, as for contact with sub-saharan africa, i imagine there was, when one considers the activities of the famous prince henry the navigator.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
Karac
Mae Hen Wlad Fy Mamau
Whether they did or didnt is up for speculation-but whats not is a massive Welsh influence on America.
"It is said that Thomas Jefferson could speak six languages, including Welsh. There is an inscription halfway up the steps of the Washington Monument which reads Fy iaith, fy ngwlad, fy nghenedl Cymru - Cymru am byth! ("My language, my land, my nation of Wales - Wales for ever!")."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northwest/sites/familyhistory/pages/jefferson.shtml
"It is said that Thomas Jefferson could speak six languages, including Welsh. There is an inscription halfway up the steps of the Washington Monument which reads Fy iaith, fy ngwlad, fy nghenedl Cymru - Cymru am byth! ("My language, my land, my nation of Wales - Wales for ever!")."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northwest/sites/familyhistory/pages/jefferson.shtml
1927
Funnier than he thinks he is.
A really interesting publication by the Welsh Assembly office in New York can be downloaded in pDf form.
In addition to the folks mentioned in this I recently discovered that Jack London was of Welsh ancestry.
In the Natural History museum on Central Park West there is an exhibit which is a cross section thru a giant redwood or some such large tree. To illustrate the historical events that have occurred during the lifetime of the tree there are dates and events marked on the rings of the tree. The centre of the tree is amrked with a date, I dont recall what year, and the event "Christianity arrives in Wales" ! Just seemed a really strange event to mention as most Americans would not know of Wales!!
In addition to the folks mentioned in this I recently discovered that Jack London was of Welsh ancestry.
In the Natural History museum on Central Park West there is an exhibit which is a cross section thru a giant redwood or some such large tree. To illustrate the historical events that have occurred during the lifetime of the tree there are dates and events marked on the rings of the tree. The centre of the tree is amrked with a date, I dont recall what year, and the event "Christianity arrives in Wales" ! Just seemed a really strange event to mention as most Americans would not know of Wales!!
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The Portuguese sailors who were sponsored by Henry the Navigator did indeed push down the African coast, establishing a fort at Port Elmina and laying the foundations for among other things the Atlantic slave trade. How widely known the exploits were outside Portugal is another matter.Strangeways said:
Of course, another problem here regarding the integration of knowledge is that different countries jealously guarded new discoveries. The voyages of Abel Tasman, for instance, were not known to wider Europe until after his death because the Portuguese wanted to keep them secret. Columubus claimed the lands he stumbled upon in the name of Ferdinand and Isabela, his sponsors, not in the name of Europe.
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