Did a Welshman discover America?

[littlebabyjesus]

In his 'Basque Hisotry of the World' Mark Kurlansky puts forward a strong arguement that the Basques were fishing cod off the Grand Banks prior to Columbus - I've never seen any convinving evidence of any of the other claims though.

And Leif Erikson got to Newfoundland in around 1000 CE. This still does not change the fact that there were already people there.

 

[Belushi]

Can't link to anything on the web. It's all come from old books.

Books which its fair to see arent taken seriously by the vast majority of historians.

 

[Belushi]

And Leif Erikson got to Newfoundland in around 1000 CE. This still does not change the fact that there were already people there.

Who claimed there werent?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Who claimed there werent?

I dislike the use of the word 'discover' in this context - especially editor coming up with new and bizarre definitions of the word which others are unlikely to pick up on. 'Was the first European to set foot on' is all one should say.

 

[Belushi]

I dislike the use of the word 'discover' in this context - especially editor coming up with new and bizarre definitions of the word which others are unlikely to pick up on. 'Was the first European to set foot on' is all one should say.

I agree, thats why I've been careful to avoid it and have used terms like 'opened up trading links with'.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I agree, thats why I've been careful to avoid it and have used terms like 'opened up trading links with'.

Ok apologies. My comment was aimed at editor, not you.

 

[Belushi]

The legend of Prester John (a mythical Christian community) suggests that there may have been some kind of contact with sub-Saharan Africa at some point. The wrongness of the legend also suggests that any contact was limited.

The Prester John legend seems to have been based on confused reports of Nestorian Christians among the Mongols which then became confised with the knowledge of Christian Kingdoms in sub-Saharan Africa; there was a famous forged 'Letter from Prester John' I seem to remember.

 

[Stanley Edwards]

Books which its fair to see arent taken seriously by the vast majority of historians.

Quite possibly, but I still refuse to believe that people haven't been crossing the Atlantic for thousands of years. It may even have been an early South American civilization that found Europe first, although all evidence pinpoints South Africa as the first place of human settlements.

We know fuck all about history basically.

 

[Belushi]

Quite possibly, but I still refuse to believe that people haven't been crossing the Atlantic for thousands of years.

Why not? theres no real evidence of Atlantic crossings prior to the Vikings.

It may even have been an early South American civilization that found Europe first, although all evidence pinpoints South Africa as the first place of human settlements.

No ti doesnt.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The latest evidence, based on DNA patterns around the world, suggests that we are all descended from one woman in East Africa around 50,000 years ago.

 

[Stanley Edwards]

The latest evidence, based on DNA patterns around the world, suggests that we are all descended from one woman in East Africa around 50,000 years ago.

I've read a very convincing one that puts it at 130,000 years ago. I'll try and find a link.

There is also a new excavation just up stream from Cadiz here in Andalucia that makes a new claim for earliest European settlement.

 

[Belushi]

Why not? theres no real evidence of Atlantic crossings prior to the Vikings.

Saying that I did watch a doc last year about 'Clovis point' Stone tools being found in Europe and America, didnt look into it any further though.

 

[Belushi]

There is also a new excavation just up stream from Cadiz here in Andalucia that makes a new claim for earliest European settlement.

That would make sens in terms of 'Out of Africa'.

 

[Stanley Edwards]

Why not? theres no real evidence of Atlantic crossings prior to the Vikings.

There's strong evidence of cultural exchange between Ancient Egypt and South American civilizations of the time.

No ti doesnt.

This is a new claim for the earliest settlement dating to 130,000 BC.

Give me 10 minutes and I'll try and find some web reference.

 

[Belushi]

There's strong evidence of cultural exchange between Ancient Egypt and South American civilizations of the time.

There really isnt as far as I'm aware, its an old claim.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There's strong evidence of cultural exchange between Ancient Egypt and South American civilizations of the time.



This is a new claim for the earliest settlement dating to 130,000 BC.

Give me 10 minutes and I'll try and find some web reference.

As far as I know this is just Thor Heyerdahl's pet theory. There's no evidence at all really beyond 'they both built pyramids', and why it is unreasonable for them to have come up with this design independently is beyond me.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I've read a very convincing one that puts it at 130,000 years ago. I'll try and find a link..

Yes, you may be right - thinking about it, 50,000 years is the date given for the first people leaving East Africa. I always was rubbish at dates.

 

[Stanley Edwards]

There really isnt as far as I'm aware, its an old claim.

I guess you could argue that similarities in architecture and art came about through instinctive development rather than cultural exchange, but I see evidence for the later.

BTW: Posted a link to this in Photography & Graphics, but it's relevant here and a nice bookmark - History of Art Timeline: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/splash.htm

I'll try and find the web references mentioned whilst making my coffee. If I don't find them now I'll take another look this evening. They're very interesting.

 

[Belushi]

I guess you could argue that similarities in architecture and art came about through instinctive development rather than cultural exchange, but I see evidence for the later.

Why? by similarities in architecture do you mean Pyramids? you do realise the South American ones were built a couple of millenia after the Egyptians ones?

I know little about Art, do you mind giving me some pointers to the similarities (and the timescale)?

 

[Belushi]

There's no evidence at all really beyond 'they both built pyramids', and why it is unreasonable for them to have come up with this design independently is beyond me.

Innit, Pyramids are popular in Ancient Cultures because its the simplest, strongest design for a big fuck-off monument.

 

[Poi E]

Didn't know that in 1100s Europeans were trading with Sub-saharan Africa (which I meant rather than N Africa) and China, Japan. Apologies

 

[Stanley Edwards]

Why? by similarities in architecture do you mean Pyramids? you do realise the South American ones were built a couple of millenia after the Egyptians ones?

I know little about Art, do you mind giving me some pointers to the similarities (and the timescale)?

I'm trying to find some!

In the meantime (and drifting further away from the thread title, but...) WTF!

400,000 year old art

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/733747.stm

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Didn't know that in 1100s Europeans were trading with Sub-saharan Africa (which I meant rather than N Africa) and China, Japan. Apologies

China yes, but I don't think they were trading with sub-Saharan Africa. I'd be interested in any links.

 

[Belushi]

In the meantime (and drifting further away from the thread title, but...) WTF!

400,000 year old art

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/733747.stm

Wow! that really pushes the first evidence of art back!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm trying to find some!

In the meantime (and drifting further away from the thread title, but...) WTF!

400,000 year old art

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/733747.stm

Winner of the 'Most gratuitous use of a photo of a tattooed man' award.

 

[Belushi]

China yes, but I don't think they were trading with sub-Saharan Africa. I'd be interested in any links.

There had been trade in an earlier period (the Romans traded extensively across the Sahara) but the rise of Islam blocked of those trade routes for Christian Europe.

In Timbuktu you were once able to trade a pound of salt for a pound of gold!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There had been trade in an earlier period (the Romans traded extensively across the Sahara) but the rise of Islam blocked of those trade routes for Christian Europe.

In Timbuktu you were once able to trade a pound of salt for a pound of gold!

How far south, though? Timbuktu is in the Sahara - hence the value of salt!

 

[Stanley Edwards]

This is a new one to me, but interesting:

THE DISCOVERY of coca and tobacco used as preservatives in the mummification process in ancient Egypt of Rameses III suggests that around 1200BC a people were engaged in trade between the South American continent and Egypt.

http://www.geocities.com/myessays/LocationofTarshish.htm

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is a new one to me, but interesting:



http://www.geocities.com/myessays/LocationofTarshish.htm

With the scholarly authority of geocities to back it up.

 

[lewislewis]

I find this stuff incredibly interesting. Maybe there is some truth to the Welsh tale
I wonder if Madog had to process a legislative competence order through Westminster before he set sail, or whether naval policy was already devolved to Gwynedd in the 12th century

As an aside, there are conspiracy theories that black africans built an early advance civilisation with writing, pyramids etc.