Did a Welshman discover America?

[editor]

Did butty boys find America first?! Or is it LlanBollocks?

In 1170 he (Madoc) and his brother, Riryd, sailed from Aber-Kerrik-Gwynan on the North Wales Coast (now Rhos-on-Sea) in two ships, the Gorn Gwynant and the Pedr Sant. They sailed west and landed in what is now Alabama in the USA.

Prince Madog then returned to Wales with great tales of his adventures and persuaded others to return to America with him. They sailed from Lundy Island in 1171 and were never heard of again.

They are believed to have landed at Mobile Bay, Alabama and then travelled up the Alabama river along which there are several stone forts, said by the local Cherokee Indians to have been constructed by "White People". These structures have been dated to several hundred years before Columbus and are of a similar design to Dolwyddelan Castle in North Wales. Were they built by Madog and his fellow settlers?

Early explorers and pioneers found evidence of Welsh influence among the tribes of Indians along the Tennessee and Missouri Rivers. In the 18th century an Indian tribe was discovered that seemed different to all the others that had been encountered before.

Called the Mandans this tribe were described as white men with forts, towns and permanent villages laid out in streets and squares. They claimed ancestry with the Welsh and spoke a language remarkably similar to it.

They fished with coracles, a type of boat still used in Wales today. It was also observed that unlike members of other tribes, these people grew white-haired with age. In addition, in 1799 Governor John Sevier of Tennessee wrote a report in which he mentioned the discovery of six skeletons encased in brass armour bearing the Welsh coat of arms. http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/Wales-History/DiscoveryofAmerica.htm

More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoc
http://www.tylwythteg.com/fortmount/Ftmount.html

 

[Kid_Eternity]

No.

 

[butchersapron]

Vikings were there well before this one.

 

[editor]

Vikings were there well before this one.

This is perfect: I've found a link between the Welsh claim on America, David Icke lizards and conspiraloonery!

Get your tin foil hats on folks!

The Mandan Indians reportedly had pale skin, blonde hair, and spoke Welsh until being wiped out by a smallpox epidemic in 1837. The stone wall at Fort Mountain, Georgia is held by some to be a fort built by Madoc and his followers to defend themselves against the Indians.

Other theories have arisen over the years, including that the Moon Eyed People are actually members of the subterranean race of lizard-people that are secretly shaping mankind's destiny. The English Royal Family is counted by some as being members of this race, which opens the possibility for those brutally conspiracy minded types that both legends are true. Charles is prince of Wales, after all.
http://www.ophymirage.net/ghosts/mountains/mooneyedpeople.php

 

[editor]

Vikings were there well before this one.

The coracle, castle design and language references are interesting though, no?

 

[butchersapron]

Sure, they nicked them from the someret marshes though. Moon eyed people Get back to neath.

 

[1927]

We may not have disocvered it, but there is a very strong claim that America was named after a Welshman.

 

[editor]

We've got a plaque, so it must be true!

George Catlin, a 19th century painter who spent eight years living among various Indian tribes including the Mandans, declared that he had uncovered the descendants of Prince Madog's expedition. He speculated that the Welshmen had lived among the Mandans for generations, intermarrying until their two cultures became virtually indistinguishable. Some later investigators supported his theory, noting that the Welsh and Mandan languages were so similar that the Mandans easily responded when spoken to in Welsh.

Unfortunately the tribe was virtually wiped out by a smallpox epidemic introduced by traders in 1837. But the belief in their Welsh heritage still persists and is celebrated by a plaque placed alongside Mobile Bay in 1953 by the Daughters of the American Revolution.

"In memory of Prince Madog," the inscription reads, "a Welsh explorer who landed on the shores of Mobile Bay in 1170 and left behind, with the Indians, the Welsh language."

http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/Wales-History/DiscoveryofAmerica.htm

Right. I'd like to claim Manhattan as part of my heritage please.

Hang on. Some other Taff has got in their first:

The descendants of a Welsh pirate claim they have the rightful title to billions of dollars worth of Lower Manhattan, including some of the most pricey earth on Earth: land under the World Trade Center, part of Wall Street and acres of New York City steel and concrete.

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/19990907edwards1.asp

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

No. If it was any of you people, it was an Irishman.

http://www.castletown.com/brendan.htm

 

[editor]

No. If it was any of you people, it was an Irishman.

There's even less proof for that one than the Welsh claim!

 

[pogofish]

I'd tend to go with the Vikings & of course the Earls of Orkney, who were descended from a Viking line:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Merika

The most controversial theories speculate that Henry (Zichmni) traveled not only to Greenland but to present-day Nova Scotia, where he may have founded a settlement among the Micmac Indians, and perhaps as far south as present-day Massachusetts and Rhode Island. According to these theories, his expedition may have been responsible for the building of the Newport Tower and the carving of the Westford Knight.

The theory that Henry Sinclair explored North America is based on several separate propositions:
That the letters and map ascribed to the Zeno brothers and published in 1558 are authentic
That the voyage described in the letters as taken by Zichmni around the year 1398 actually reached North America.
That Zichmni is Henry Sinclair.

The Theory also hinges on the contention that there are stone carvings of American plants in Rosslyn Chapel in Scotland,[1] plants supposedly not seen by Europeans until Columbus. The Chapel was built by Henry Sinclair's grandson William Sinclair and was completed in 1486. Columbus made his first voyage in 1492. This is seen by authors Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas as being compelling evidence for the theory that Henry sailed to America.[2] Others suggest that the plants are not american at all.

In 1998 Clan Sinclair celebrated the 600 anniversary of Henry' trip to America.[3]

 

[Poi E]

Native Americans found America first

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Native Americans found America first

Correct answer.

Next wacky Welsh link - was America named after a Welshman?

The candidate is Richard Amerike, sponsor of John Cabot's voyage in 1497.

 

[CharlieAddict]

nah the chinese discovered america.

 

[editor]

Native Americans found America first

"Discovered" as in "connected it to the rest of the world."

 

[littlebabyjesus]

"Discovered" as in "connected it to the rest of the world."

That's not a definition of discovered I've heard before. What you really mean is 'connected it to Europe'.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

"connected it to the rest of the world."

That was the people at RISK.

 

[Poi E]

"Discovered" as in "connected it to the rest of the world."

People in Florida were trading with tribes in central America...At the time you refer to (1100s) Europe wasn't itself connected to the "rest of the world". Hadn't been to Africa, much of Asia. The southern hemisphere may as well not have existed for Europeans.

 

[editor]

That's not a definition of discovered I've heard before. What you really mean is 'connected it to Europe'.

Do you want my log in for a while so you can post up some more thoughts I didn't know I had?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Do you want my log in for a while so you can post up some more thoughts I didn't know I had?

I think you should answer Poi E's objections before getting sarky with me.

 

[Belushi]

People in Florida were trading with tribes in central America...At the time you refer to (1100s) Europe wasn't itself connected to the "rest of the world". Hadn't been to Africa, much of Asia. The southern hemisphere may as well not have existed for Europeans.

Thats not actually true.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Thats not actually true.

What is true is that, at that time, Europeans hadn't been to sub-Saharan Africa, Australia was unknown to them, and China was only vaguely heard of. The point stands - to say 'connecting with the rest of the world' is both wrong and culturally arrogant.

 

[editor]

People in Florida were trading with tribes in central America...At the time you refer to (1100s) Europe wasn't itself connected to the "rest of the world". Hadn't been to Africa, much of Asia. The southern hemisphere may as well not have existed for Europeans.

Err, hello? Where are you getting this nonsense from? The Romans established African colonies thousands of years ago, and the Greeks had been trading with Africa before that.

http://www.unrv.com/provinces/africa.php
http://historymedren.about.com/od/aentries/a/11_africa.htm

 

[Belushi]

The point stands - to say 'connecting with the rest of the world' is both wrong and culturally arrogant.

Im not sure it is tbh - Native Americans had no contact with the rest of the World prior to Columbus opening up the trade routes.

 

[editor]

I think you should answer Poi E's objections before getting sarky with me.

His 'objections' are historically plain wrong..

 

[Belushi]

What is true is that, at that time, Europeans hadn't been to sub-Saharan Africa, Australia was unknown to them, and China was only vaguely heard of

Europe has ancient trading links with both sub-Saharan Africa and China - the rise of Islam blocked the traditional links (and was the major impetus in the European 'Voyages of Discovery').

 

[editor]

Europe has ancient trading links with both sub-Saharan Africa and China - the rise of Islam blocked the traditional links (and was the major impetus in the European 'Voyages of Discovery').

Indeed:

Long-distance trade played a major role in the cultural, religious, and artistic exchanges that took place between the major centers of civilization in Europe and Asia during antiquity.

Some of these trade routes had been in use for centuries, but by the beginning of the first century A.D., merchants, diplomats, and travelers could (in theory) cross the ancient world from Britain and Spain in the west to China and Japan in the east.

The trade routes served principally to transfer raw materials, foodstuffs, and luxury goods from areas with surpluses to others where they were in short supply.

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/trade/hd_trade.htm

 

[Stanley Edwards]

I've been doing a lot of research on ancient trade routes recently. Also, theories about early civilizations and the earliest settlements. Some theories date the earliest settlements (and early examples of art and culture) to 140,000 BC. I find it to much to believe that civilizations weren't trading between continents and particularly America until a few hundred years ago. Total bollocks.

The most commonly believed theory here is that trade routes and fishing grounds were kept secret by those who controlled them. Columbus apparently crewed his ships with Basque fisherman because they were already familiar with the route. There are also reports that the leaders of tribes in Peru understood the Basque language already.

There are similar theories about early Welsh and Irish/Celtic trade routes and a waymarked path full of ancient Celtic symbols stretching from North to South America. These are the earliest known European symbols to be found in America possibly dating to 2,500 BC.

Can't link to anything on the web. It's all come from old books.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Europe has ancient trading links with both sub-Saharan Africa and China - the rise of Islam blocked the traditional links (and was the major impetus in the European 'Voyages of Discovery').

The legend of Prester John (a mythical Christian community) suggests that there may have been some kind of contact with sub-Saharan Africa at some point. The wrongness of the legend also suggests that any contact was limited.

As far as I know, the only well documented journey down the coast of Africa in the ancient world was that of Hanno, who may have made it as far as Cameroon. He had little or no contact with the people there - and indeed he did not realise that chimpanzees were not people.

The Portuguese began to explore the west coast of Africa in order to find a route through to Asia after the Silk Road had been blocked. I have not heard of any trade routes to sub-Saharan Africa being blocked off by the rise of Islam. I would be genuinely interested to hear of it.

 

[Belushi]

The most commonly believed theory here is that trade routes and fishing grounds were kept secret by those who controlled them. Columbus apparently crewed his ships with Basque fisherman because they were already familiar with the route. There are also reports that the leaders of tribes in Peru understood the Basque language already.

In his 'Basque Hisotry of the World' Mark Kurlansky puts forward a strong arguement that the Basques were fishing cod off the Grand Banks prior to Columbus - I've never seen any convinving evidence of any of the other claims though.