Describe your 'political tradition' in one sentence

[goldenecitrone]

Post new left, post 68, post bennite socialist still looking to move beyond the fragments.

Postman Pat, Post Mr. Benn, Oliver Post-gate.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Astonishing - you are forced to make up some bullshit because you've never heard the people who are supposed to have spouted the said bullshit actually spout the bullshit they are supposed to spout.

Well here's your chance to set me straight. You call yourself a communist, how do you feel about the body count that has traditionally gone hand in hand with your ideology?

 

[Belushi]

I can only make assumptions about what they think as I've never heard a communist actually try to justify the behaviour of their pals down the years.

You dont actually understand what Communism is do you?

 

[Captain Hurrah]

Nothing.

 

[SpookyFrank]

so do most communists.

Yeah, in fact I believe Lenin was anti-authoritarian before the revolution. I can't quite remember how that turned out...

 

[frogwoman]

Most "communists" have put forward theories about the nature of those regimes though and said either that they're deformed workers states, that they degenerated into capitalism or that they weren't ever workers' states to begin with. I am simplifying it a bit here but I don't think anyone ever says it was just because of a few bad apples.

 

[Belushi]

Well here's your chance to set me straight. You call yourself a communist, how do you feel about the body count that has traditionally gone hand in hand with your ideology?

How do you feel about the body count thats gone hand in hand with Democracy? I'm happy to compare figures with you.

 

[Delroy Booth]

What about "democratic socialism" but in it's abstract, rather than specifically Labourist, sense? Is that a label that has any meaning apart from Labour? Wasn't it a phrase coined to distinguish Labourite ie reformist parliamentary socialism from all other types of socialism, which are implicitly undemocratic? What's the history of the phrase and where did it come from? Was there a debate in the Labour party to adopt it? Coz in in all seriousness I'd like to describe myself as a democratic socialist in the british working class tradition, but it's a pretty contentious term that carries a lot of baggage with it.

 

[Lo Siento.]

I can only make assumptions about what they think as I've never heard a communist actually try to justify the behaviour of their pals down the years.

Unless you were speaking to a Stalinist or a Maoist, in what sense were the leaders of the socialist countries "their pals"?

 

[Delroy Booth]

Who knows?

It's just that when I hear 'communism' I think of authoritarian empires built on human bones. Maybe for others the word conjures up images of cups of tea and homemade jumpers but for me it always comes back to the bones.

You just wait, fuck Stalin and Mao and the "100 million dead" we'll double that this century, easy.

 

[FiFi]

Old Labour peacenik.
I wasn't me that changed, it was the party that moved rightward!

 

[SpookyFrank]

You dont actually understand what Communism is do you?

I tend to judge people by their actions, not their words. To those on the recieving end, communism is less like a nice happy ideology about sharing and equality and more like the wrath of an angry god.

 

[butchersapron]

Well here's your chance to set me straight. You call yourself a communist, how do you feel about the body count that has traditionally gone hand in hand with your ideology?

Yes, that would be worthwhile.

 

[SpookyFrank]

You just wait, fuck Stalin and Mao and the "100 million dead" we'll double that this century, easy.

Yeah, as soon as you've got a third member for your party so you can hold both ends of the banner and the megaphone I'm sure your reign of terror will be up there with the best of them.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Yeah, in fact I believe Lenin was anti-authoritarian before the revolution. I can't quite remember how that turned out...

I wouldn't say that. The Bolsheviks were always a very authoritarian party, they took a brief more libertarian turn for about 6 months in 1917, largely as a response to events, then reverted to type. There's only one thing written by Lenin that you could consider even vaguely democratic in spirit, which is State and Revolution.

 

[smokedout]

cowering under a tattered red and black flag in the desperate hope of evading nihilism

that and I fucking hate posh people

 

[SpookyFrank]

Yes, that would be worthwhile.

Ah, the 'I don't have to explain myself' defence so beloved of mad dictators.

 

[Delroy Booth]

What a fucking clown you are Frank do keep it up

 

[SpookyFrank]

How do you feel about the body count thats gone hand in hand with Democracy? I'm happy to compare figures with you.

I think per capita it actually comes out quite a bit lower.

 

[SpineyNorman]

It's saying we need to rethink a lot of assumptions about left organising

Would have been easier if you'd just come out and said that to begin with

 

[butchersapron]

Ah, the 'I don't have to explain myself' defence so beloved of mad dictators.

No, it's more that you've not actually shown yourself to be the most avid or insightful student of political history so really all you're good for is prodding.

Anyway, you're an anarchist who rejects communism, which means you're pretty much a free-market liberal or a randist. Great stuff.

 

[Belushi]

I tend to judge people by their actions, not their words. To those on the recieving end, communism is less like a nice happy ideology about sharing and equality and more like the wrath of an angry god.

What are you basing this on? My experience of those on 'the receiving end' of Communism is that there's a much wider range of opinions, from outright hatred to a real sense of regret at it's passing.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I can only make assumptions about what they think as I've never heard a communist actually try to justify the behaviour of their pals down the years.

'They' don't justify it - because those people aren't 'their pals'.

You big fucking dope.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Anyway, you're an anarchist who rejects communism, which means you're pretty much a free-market liberal or a randist.

I've always viewed the phrase 'anarchist communist' as indistinguishable from the phrase 'turkey voting for christmas'.

If anarchism and communism are such natural bedfellows why are communists so keen on having all the anarchists shot?

 

[Belushi]

I think per capita it actually comes out quite a bit lower.

Which, Communism or Democracy?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Most "communists" have put forward theories about the nature of those regimes though and said either that they're deformed workers states, that they degenerated into capitalism or that they weren't ever workers' states to begin with. I am simplifying it a bit here but I don't think anyone ever says it was just because of a few bad apples.

Serious communists, or Marxists at least, would usually point to pretty much everything except a few bad apples at the top. For that kind of analysis you'd generally have to look to rabidly anti-communist historians like Richard Pipes.

 

[SpookyFrank]

What are you basing this on? My experience of those on 'the receiving end' of Communism is that there's a much wider range of opinions, from outright hatred to a real sense of regret at it's passing.

The dead are seldom afforded a chance to express regret, so that may slew the figures somewhat.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Most "communists" have put forward theories about the nature of those regimes though and said either that they're deformed workers states, that they degenerated into capitalism or that they weren't ever workers' states to begin with. I am simplifying it a bit here but I don't think anyone ever says it was just because of a few bad apples.

Can anyone suggest a modern communist writer who covers this sort of thing and can actually string a sentence together? Serious question.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Anyway, you're an anarchist who rejects communism, which means you're pretty much a free-market liberal or a randist. Great stuff.

They've never killed anyone of course. Never been any wars or genocides associated with classical liberalism. None.

 

[butchersapron]

Can anyone suggest a modern communist writer who covers this sort of thing and can actually string a sentence together? Serious question.

Noam Chomsky do you?